Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 28, 2024, 8:00 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Dylann Roof sentenced to death
RE: Dylann Roof sentenced to death
(January 13, 2017 at 4:21 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Naturally, since it's current state is...well...it's current state.

I also object to its current state, so we're on the same page.

Quote:I've also expressed my objections to your proposed improvements of that state.  Beyond thinking that those improvements, a cheap(er) and flawless system, are beyond silly as expectations of anything that we could ever achieve in the real world

I don't think it's silly to have a hypothetical picture of what things could look like if people took their heads out of their asses. We absolutely should expect more of the real world than what it's conjuring up at present.

Quote:...supposing we could, I'd still object to the death penalty on the grounds that -I- find the most compelling, which you may not.  Limits to the power and authority of the State.

I find that compelling. I'm old school like that. Still, you can create limits while giving them some power. Obviously, that's not something that's achievable now, but I see no reason not to imagine it.

Quote:I can understand those criteria.  You've compartmentalized it (not criticizing, just noticing).

I've compartmentalized it because that's the absolute and only fraction of this issue where I'm okay with the death penalty. Why wouldn't I compartmentalize it? I try not to speak in generalities. If I said I was against the death penalty, I'd be lying. If I said I was for it, I'd also be lying. It is not simple. It is an issue with a lot of compartments. That happens to be the one I was interested in talking about in my first post in this thread.

I'd chit-chat about this more, but I don't think we necessarily disagree. I just think we find different points on the issue the more pertinent. There are maybe five-ten cases out of who knows many a decade that we wouldn't agree on. In the big picture, generally, you might say, we're not at odds, for lack of a better term.

(January 13, 2017 at 4:37 pm)Brian37 Wrote:
(January 13, 2017 at 4:21 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Naturally, since it's current state is...well...it's current state.  I've also expressed my objections to your proposed improvements of that state.  Beyond thinking that those improvements, a cheap(er) and flawless system, are beyond silly as expectations of anything that we could ever achieve in the real world...supposing we could, I'd still object to the death penalty on the grounds that -I- find the most compelling, which you may not.  Limits to the power and authority of the State.  The State, by it's very nature, wields a broad and terrifying ability, even when it steps lightly, even when every precaution is taken.  

I can understand those criteria.  You've compartmentalized it (not criticizing, just noticing).

Shell B, it isn't your reaction to Roof. At least for me my argument is it is simply pointing out we don't live in an ideal society where that would work. It doesn't work as a deterrent because we still have murders. It doesn't work on an economic level because it costs far more to prosecute with the case then the following appeals. It doesn't work because those who don't have a bank account large enough to counter the prosecution so that leaves those with less means at a disadvantage. And admittedly for purely selfish reasons, I know what  it is like to have large numbers hate you when you didn't do it.

It is an oversimplification to simply call them garbage and want to throw them out like trash. I agree Roof is trash, but again, we are talking about an entire system of laws we all live under and climates of attitudes change over time as the powers shift over time. You have to take the larger sample in the entire history. Even scientific method wont allow you to cherry pick your samples. 

Your criteria would only work in an ideal world. 

I think a long term tactic would be to have a society where parents are trained as well as kids things like conflict resolution skills, learn to spot abuse and or mental illness, fund those things, and have livable wages so you have more safety nets to catch a problem. We've had "lock em up and throw away the key for decades now, and even outside murder, we have clear evidence that does not work.

Is there no reason to strive for a more ideal, if not ideal, world?
Reply
RE: Dylann Roof sentenced to death
(January 13, 2017 at 4:42 pm)Shell B Wrote: I also object to its current state, so we're on the same page.
As we've been for years,  on that count, iirc.  

Quote:I don't think it's silly to have a hypothetical picture of what things could look like if people took their heads out of their asses. We absolutely should expect more of the real world than what it's conjuring up at present.
I didn't say it was silly to have a hypothetical picture of what it would look like if people took their heads out of their asses.  I'm suggesting that it's silly to expect that we could achieve those proposed improvements even if people -did- take their heads out of their asses.  We've already taken ur heads out of our asses, significantly, on this issue, this si already the improved, streamlined version of what we had.  I implied that making the dp cheaper and (at least relatively) flawless, simulataneously, is not possible...and that even if it were, it still doesn't address objections not related to those two issues, or answer the most basic objection of all.  Why do it in the first place, regardless of the price or surety of guilt.  
Quote:I find that compelling. I'm old school like that. Still, you can create limits while giving them some power. Obviously, that's not something that's achievable now, but I see no reason not to imagine it.
Power over life and death cannot be doled out by degree.  They can either kill you, or they can't.  You are either dead, or alive.  That's how I approach it, anyway.  

Quote:I've compartmentalized it because that's the absolute and only fraction of this issue where I'm okay with the death penalty. Why wouldn't I compartmentalize it? I try not to speak in generalities. If I said I was against the death penalty, I'd be lying. If I said I was for it, I'd also be lying. It is not simple. It is an issue with a lot of compartments. That happens to be the one I was interested in talking about in my first post in this thread.
I was actually speaking more of you compartmentalizing it as "them" killing somebody.  Rather than "us", or "me".  To me, that sems to be central to your acceptance of it, as limited as it is.  I don't do it that way, I don't compartmentalize it that way.  When the state, my state, kills someone...I feel deeply implicated.  To me, it's inescapable...and that might be because I've been that executioner or that I have a quixotically developed sense of ownership of the state.  / shrugs.  

Quote:I'd chit-chat about this more, but I don't think we necessarily disagree. I just think we find different points on the issue the more pertinent. There are maybe five-ten cases out of who knows many a decade that we wouldn't agree on. In the big picture, generally, you might say, we're not at odds, for lack of a better term.
Probably not, but I like having even minor disagreements with you.  It doesn;t make me hear this sucking sound where my faith uin humanity used to be like the other 90% of my interactions on this board do.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: Dylann Roof sentenced to death
Don't know why my reply did not show up, but I'll try again
(January 12, 2017 at 10:52 am)Rhondazvous Wrote:
(January 12, 2017 at 9:13 am)Rhondazvous Wrote: When they arrested him last year, he told the cops he was hungry and they took his ass to Burger King!

Only goes to show that you don't know about interrogation techniques. A move to gain his trust, nothing more. They're pulling that trick quite often. Lee Boyd Malvo also got his veggie burger to make him talk.
You make a valid point. Though I wish they would use interrogation tactic on black men instead of just shooting them. Man ran a red light. He's dangerous. Shoot him. Man killed nine people. Let's see if we can reason with him. Get him to talk.

You make a valid point. I just wish they'd use interrogation techniques on black people instead of just shooting them. Man runs a red light. He's dangerous. Kill him. Man kills nine people. Let's reason with him. Maybe he'll talk.
The god who allows children to be raped out of respect for the free will choice of the rapist, but punishes gay men for engaging in mutually consensual sex couldn't possibly be responsible for an intelligently designed universe.

I may defend your right to free speech, but i won't help you pass out flyers.

Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.
--Voltaire

Nietzsche isn't dead. How do I know he lives? He lives in my mind.
Reply
RE: Dylann Roof sentenced to death
(January 13, 2017 at 5:24 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote: You make a valid point. I just wish they'd  use interrogation techniques on black people instead of just shooting them. Man runs a red light. He's dangerous. Kill him.

Sure as hell saves us money on the trial.  Besides, he resisted.

Quote:Man kills nine people. Let's reason with him. Maybe he'll talk.

Hey!  He has a right to face the charges against him before a jury of his peers!
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: Dylann Roof sentenced to death
(January 13, 2017 at 5:24 pm)Rhondazvous Wrote: You make a valid point. I just wish they'd  use interrogation techniques on black people instead of just shooting them. Man runs a red light. He's dangerous. Kill him. Man kills nine people. Let's reason with him. Maybe he'll talk.

You screw up your quotes for some reason, but I reply the same way I did the first time round, since part of the above is my quote. It's an entirely different topic. Cops killing black people - we already discussed multiple times.

People already in custody are a different matter. And Lee Boyd Malvo is also black and got the Burger treatment to gain his trust.
[Image: Bumper+Sticker+-+Asheville+-+Praise+Dog3.JPG]
Reply
RE: Dylann Roof sentenced to death
Does anyone else think it;s funny that that actually works?

Ask yourself this, how many burgers would it take for you to admit to the commission of a crime or even accidentally implicate yourself...and, what level of confidence does it instill in you to think that a hopeful interrogator might actually expect that to work?  I know it does....sometimes, on some people..I guess...but it makes you wonder what the cop would do if a real fuckin mastermind was on their hands.  "Cap, we got him the big mac -and- the fries, he still won't talk, the mans unbreakable, we may never crack this case!".  On the other end of the coin......we're obviously running out of even remotely mediocre criminals in the world..these guys we have left aren;t the b or even the c team...they're just idiots.

Earlier, A Theist treated us to what I can only assume we're to consider a truly cunning act, a clever criminal escaping the law.......of losing weight and slipping through a hole in the drywall. That's not a smart criminal.....it's gross incompetence on the part of another party. People try that shit in other contexts all the time. The guys we find stuck in the ceiling tiles at the mcdonalds the next day, after a botched robbery. Talk about there but for the grace of god go I.

Wink
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: Dylann Roof sentenced to death
(January 13, 2017 at 5:08 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I didn't say it was silly to have a hypothetical picture of what it would look like if people took their heads out of their asses.  I'm suggesting that it's silly to expect that we could achieve those proposed improvements even if people -did- take their heads out of their asses.  We've already taken ur heads out of our asses, significantly, on this issue, this si already the improved, streamlined version of what we had.  I implied that making the dp cheaper and (at least relatively) flawless, simulataneously, is not possible...and that even if it were, it still doesn't address objections not related to those two issues, or answer the most basic objection of all.  Why do it in the first place, regardless of the price or surety of guilt.  

Well, I think we could, but there are a lot of variables that would make it a monumental task–one that I doubt our government will ever care to undertake.

Why do it in the first place? I don't know. I know a lot of people feel it is right. I know we can't dismiss them just because we disagree with them. I also know that I don't care about this select few people living or dying, so my default is to say if you take out the objection that I have (the possibility of innocence), then have at it. Where you have an additional or several additional objections, you obviously don't default to that position.


Quote:Power over life and death cannot be doled out by degree.  They can either kill you, or they can't.  You are either dead, or alive.  That's how I approach it, anyway.

See, they technically can't kill you, assuming they follow the letter of the law and you don't commit a heinous act, in my hypothetical paradise. To be fair, they can kill you even if it's against the law, as evidenced by the untold numbers of innocent people killed by police and military violence.  

Quote:I was actually speaking more of you compartmentalizing it as "them" killing somebody.  Rather than "us", or "me".  To me, that sems to be central to your acceptance of it, as limited as it is.  I don't do it that way, I don't compartmentalize it that way.  When the state, my state, kills someone...I feel deeply implicated.  To me, it's inescapable...and that might be because I've been that executioner or that I have a quixotically developed sense of ownership of the state.  / shrugs.  

Ah, fair point. I say them because I wouldn't have anything to do with it. However, if I had to take some partial ownership of that death, I still wouldn't lift a finger to stop it, assuming, again, that we were in Shelltopia.

Quote:Probably not, but I like having even minor disagreements with you.  It doesn;t make me hear this sucking sound where my faith uin humanity used to be like the other 90% of my interactions on this board do.

I like debating with you too. I swear to fuck we've had this same debate before. We'll have to pick another one next time. Go find something we disagree about. Tongue

(January 13, 2017 at 6:35 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Does anyone else think it;s funny that that actually works?

Ask yourself this, how many burgers would it take for you to admit to the commission of a crime or even accidentally implicate yourself...and, what level of confidence does it instill in you to think that a hopeful interrogator might actually expect that to work?  I know it does....sometimes, on some people..I guess...but it makes you wonder what the cop would do if a real fuckin mastermind was on their hands.  "Cap, we got him the big mac -and- the fries, he still won't talk, the mans unbreakable, we may never crack this case!".  On the other end of the coin......we're obviously running out of even remotely mediocre criminals in the world..these guys we have left aren;t the b or even the c team...they're just idiots.

Wink

It doesn't matter if they give me no burgers. I'm a terrible liar. They'd say, "You kill them?" I'd say, "Them who?"
Reply
RE: Dylann Roof sentenced to death
(January 13, 2017 at 6:35 pm)Shell B Wrote: Well, I think we could, but there are a lot of variables that would make it a monumental task–one that I doubt our government will ever care to undertake.

Why do it in the first place? I don't know. I know a lot of people feel it is right. I know we can't dismiss them just because we disagree with them. I also know that I don't care about this select few people living or dying, so my default is to say if you take out the objection that I have (the possibility of innocence), then have at it. Where you have an additional or several additional objections, you obviously don't default to that position.
I don't dismiss them just because I disagree, I dismiss them because they can't answer that question any more competently than you or I.  

Quote:See, they technically can't kill you, assuming they follow the letter of the law and you don't commit a heinous act, in my hypothetical paradise. To be fair, they can kill you even if it's against the law, as evidenced by the untold numbers of innocent people killed by police and military violence.   
 It probably wouldn't surprise you to find that I advocate for taking lethal options away from law enforcement as well, I'm guessing?  In my "perfect state"...when the state kills someone (a citizen), it's accidental, no matter the context. Military, meh...it's a terrible fucking profession where people do terrible things to each other. No way around it.

Quote:Ah, fair point. I say them because I wouldn't have anything to do with it. However, if I had to take some partial ownership of that death, I still wouldn't lift a finger to stop it, assuming, again, that we were in Shelltopia.
Why compartmentalize at all if, even assuming ownership, you wouldn't lift a finger?   IDK< I hate to be the guy that says..it seems like you might, or some part of you is already lifting a finger just in compartmentalizing it...but, I'm totally that guy...so there, I said it.  

Angel  

Quote:I like debating with you too. I swear to fuck we've had this same debate before. We'll have to pick another one next time. Go find something we disagree about. Tongue

Twice, actually.   Wink
(it would be fun to find something we did disagree about. The Sox suck, discuss?)

Quote:It doesn't matter if they give me no burgers. I'm a terrible liar. They'd say, "You kill them?" I'd say, "Them who?"
Hehehe, probably best to say nothing, then, lol.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: Dylann Roof sentenced to death
You can't argue that the Sox suck, so you lose already.
Reply
RE: Dylann Roof sentenced to death
They won't get me to talk!

Just don't offer me the toys! Then I'll spill the beans! Lol!
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  NXIVM Cult leader due to be sentenced tomoz...predictions? Duty 13 630 October 27, 2020 at 7:01 pm
Last Post: brewer
  Suge Knight Sentenced to 28 Years in Prison Fake Messiah 3 627 October 9, 2018 at 10:39 am
Last Post: Jackalope
  Dutchman sentenced to month in jail for insulting king account_inactive 12 1696 July 15, 2016 at 6:01 am
Last Post: Fidel_Castronaut
  S.C. Can't Execure Dylan Roof Because of Drug Shortage Rhondazvous 17 3259 October 5, 2015 at 1:36 pm
Last Post: TheRocketSurgeon
  Rape victim sentenced to death in Iran. Brian37 68 12512 October 26, 2014 at 3:55 pm
Last Post: Violet
  Iranian sentenced to death for blasphemy. Brian37 8 1949 September 19, 2014 at 6:41 am
Last Post: Brian37



Users browsing this thread: 2 Guest(s)