(1st November 2011 22:20)Rhythm Wrote:  I'm gonna run with it.

I cannot know anything outside of my own mind. Fortunately I'm not a solipsist and neither is the dreamworld I've invented for myself.

Now Sae, on the other hand....

Sure you can. Knowledge doesn't require you be right, only that you be certain of it.

I love you too, rhythm

I know nobody believes in it, because common sense always prevails, but I don't seem any reason to be trying to disprove it, because once we do, if it is possible, then we'll just say, "right, don't we know exactly the same things as we did when we started off?"

Well no,you 'know' no such thing,you believe it to be true,which is not the same..


Common sense is an oxymoron.We have actually had the odd believer in solipism here.

No I don't accept solipism,nor do I discount it as 'stupid',because it has a certain logic,albeit of a level usually found in babies and very young children. I need disprove nothing.,it's up to the believer to prove his belief, not to me to disprove it.

(1st November 2011 22:39)padraic Wrote:  Well no,you 'know' no such thing,you believe it to be true,which is not the same..

How isnt it the same, and how can you tell the difference.

People believe they aren't the same (know it, many of them claim). Sad thing that what we believe, whatever that is, we are probably wrong. All the scientific knowledge in the world is just that: beliefs, most of them supported by various intersubjective evidences. Less likely to be incorrect than when one person knows something that they didn't believe as a result of the scientific method. Still can be.

As much point as discussing an imaginary being with delusionists. To a certain extent, though, I am solipsistic.

(1st November 2011 23:30)IATIA Wrote:  As much point as discussing an imaginary being with delusionists. To a certain extent, though, I am solipsistic.

I guess when you don't pay any attention to it, you have no choice but to live in the ordinary/real world. I don't see the reason why anyone can not abandon solipsistic principles altogether. Isn't it obvious that the external world exists, without going deeper and thinking about it too much?

(1st November 2011 23:35)JollyForr Wrote:  Isn't it obvious that the external world exists, without going deeper and thinking about it too much?

Step out your front door and look around. Is it not 'obvious' the world is flat? Why question that?

(1st November 2011 22:52)Vaeolet Lilly Blossom Wrote:  

(1st November 2011 22:39)padraic Wrote:  Well no,you 'know' no such thing,you believe it to be true,which is not the same..

How isnt it the same, and how can you tell the difference.

Pople believe they aren't the same (know it, many of them claim). Sad thing that what we believe, whatever that is, we are probably wrong. All the scientific knowledge in the world is just that: beliefs, most of them supported by various intersuebjective evidences. Less likely to be incorrect than when one person knows something that they didn't believe as a result of the scientific method. Still can be.

You answered your own question: Science does not deal in certainties.Metaphysical and broad philosophical positions less so.

When a person asserts "I KNOW [am certain] there is a god" for example, he is making a statement of belief or personal certitude..

In my opinion,it is a foolish person who claims certainty about anything,especially without credible evidence to support his claim.


To simply assert X,Y or Z is stupid or wrong,without explaining why and presenting evidence is an argument from personal incredulity,a logical fallacy.

(2nd November 2011 04:02)IATIA Wrote:  

(1st November 2011 23:35)JollyForr Wrote:  Isn't it obvious that the external world exists, without going deeper and thinking about it too much?

Step out your front door and look around. Is it not 'obvious' the world is flat? Why question that?

So in the end, what is it which brings you back not believing in it? I don't think there's any reason to believe in solipsism; why shouldn't I just think the external world exists, and trust my senses. Is common sense the dominating factor?
And if it was a product of my imagination then tell me, why the hell would I create The Jeremy Kyle Show!?

As an example for the opposite of "quality". Surprised no ones brought this up yet. Logic does give us some very persuasive arguments that would seem flatly against common sense. The argument for solipsism, and the argument against inductive reasoning are two prime examples. Ultimately it helps to understand that the way we describe logic is simply a system of ordering our own thoughts along lines of how the universe appears to behave. Each fallacy that someone might know the name of now was once a discovery, prior to that those fallacies were thought valid arguments.

It's just as likely, when dealing with the problems of solipsism or induction, that our understanding of the variables in the argument are flawed. Of course this is an argument with elements of solipsism itself. Funny how that works out. As I mentioned jokingly, whether or not the argument for solipsism is factually accurate would be a moot point, since the world in our proposed minds very much seems to operate on principles that lead us to believe that we, and a whole host of other shit, actually do exist. The same for induction. It works. These problems could easily be problems of logic, more specifically they could be problems of human perception and intellect. Nonetheless, they can be fun to knock around.

Claims like that of the solipsist are exactly why we are no longer satisfied with logic alone and instead have built a more elaborate system of accumulating knowledge.

@Rhythm

Much more eloquent than my 'Step out the door and let common sense' feed your mind.

@JollyForr

Quote:And if it was a product of my imagination then tell me, why the hell would I create The Jeremy Kyle Show!?

One could say the same thing about dreams. Once one learns to control the dreams, they change significantly. (Lucid Dreaming)

There is a hollow earth believer that has accounted for certain seismic anomalies that are unexplained today. This is not to say that I believe in a hollow earth, but rather that most of what science 'knows' is based on extrapolations of empirical data and theories. 'Common sense' and 'logic' says the earth is solid and made up of several layers of different materials, but we really do not 'Know' what is really under the earth's crust. The deepest we have been is 7.5 miles, if I recall correctly. Only 4000 miles to go.