(5th December 2008 18:11)Daystar Wrote:  

(5th December 2008 17:45)Ace Wrote:  Sin is just a concept. It cannot effect any non-believer.

Sin is a word that means to miss the mark set by anyone, religious, secular, natural or supernatural. Sin, is the 21st letter in the Hebrew alphabet and it was also a wilderness area and city near Sinai as well as an Egyptian city.

The secular meaning of the word sin is identical to the Biblical use of the word, so once again your ignorance continues unabated through your religious prejudice.

Sin is a word. The Bible writers didn't make up words, you know. They used the ones available to them.

Nice point....

(5th December 2008 18:33)Ace Wrote:  Indeed, also ,daystar, can you elaborate on this -

God be seen?
EXO 24:9,10; AMO 9:1; GEN 26:2; and JOH 14:9
God CAN be seen:
"And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." (EXO 33:23)
"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (EXO 33:11)
"For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (GEN 32:30)
God CANNOT be seen:
"No man hath seen God at any time." (JOH 1:18)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (EXO 33:20)
"Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1TIM 6:16)

"... I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." -- Genesis 32:30

"No man hath seen God at any time..."-- John 1:18

Who has seen God and what does it mean to see God 'face to face?'

Did Abraham? Genesis 18:1-3 Note that Jehovah god is mistaken for one of the three men. Was God a man or an angel in the form of a man who represented God?

Did Moses? Numbers 12:8 - Note that it is an apperance of God that represents God to Moses.

Did Jacob? Genesis 32:30 - Note Hosea 12:2-4 points out that it was an angel who represented God that grappled with Jacob.

Did Manoah and his wife? Judges 13:2-22 - Note that the angel of Jehovah God is called Jehovah God.

Did Gideon? Judges 6:11-23 - Later Jehovah's angel came and sat under the big tree that was in Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite, while Gideon his son was beating out wheat in the winepress so as to get it quickly out of the sight of Midian. Then Jehovah's angel appeared to him and said to him: "Jehovah is with you, you valiant, mighty one." At this Gideon said to him: "Excuse me, my lord, but if Jehovah is with us, then why has all this come upon us, and where are all his wonderful acts that our fathers related to us, saying, 'Was it not out of Egypt that Jehovah brought us up?' And now Jehovah has deserted us, and he gives us into the palm of Midian." Upon that Jehovah faced him and said: "Go in this power of yours, and you will certainly save Israel out of Midian's palm. Do I not send you?" In turn he said to him: "Excuse me, Jehovah. With what shall I save Israel? Look! My thousand is the least in Manasseh, and I am the smallest in my father’s house." But Jehovah said to him: "Because I shall prove to be with you, and you will certainly strike down Midian as if one man."

At this he said to him: "If, now, I have found favor in your eyes, you must also perform a sign for me that you are the one speaking with me. Do not, please, move away from here until I come to you and I have brought out my gift and set it before you." Accordingly he said: "I, for my part, shall keep sitting here until you return." And Gideon went in and proceeded to make ready a kid of the goats and an ephah of flour as unfermented cakes. The meat he put in the basket, and the broth he put in the cooking pot, after which he brought it out to him under the big tree and served it.

The angel of the [true] God now said to him: "Take the meat and the unfermented cakes and set them on the big rock there, and pour out the broth." At that he did so. Then Jehovah's angel thrust out the tip of the staff that was in his hand and touched the meat and the unfermented cakes, and fire began to ascend out of the rock and to consume the meat and the unfermented cakes. As for Jehovah's angel, he vanished from his sight. Consequently Gideon realized that it was Jehovah’s angel.

At once Gideon said: "Alas, Sovereign Lord Jehovah, for the reason that I have seen Jehovah's angel face to face!" But Jehovah said to him: "Peace be yours. Do not fear. You will not die." So Gideon built an altar there to Jehovah, and it continues to be called Jehovah-shalom down to this day. It is yet in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.

No man has seen God but a few have seen representations of him. The angels are, in a sense, at least to the people they deal with, the same as God.

---

(5th December 2008 18:25)LukeMC Wrote:  

(5th December 2008 18:23)Daystar Wrote:  that is wrongly concluded to be a contradiction, I might add.

Care to elaborate?

Well, it is fairly simple. A God of war and a god of peace can be the same god just as we often seek peace through war.

Hence when we have peace, does God cease to be a God of war?

(5th December 2008 22:33)LukeMC Wrote:  Hence when we have peace, does God cease to be a God of war?

We have nothing to do with it. It applies to they. And when God chooses to be a God of war he is a God of war. The same as peace.

(5th December 2008 22:38)Daystar Wrote:  

(5th December 2008 22:33)LukeMC Wrote:  Hence when we have peace, does God cease to be a God of war?

We have nothing to do with it. It applies to they. And when God chooses to be a God of war he is a God of war. The same as peace.

What does it mean to be a "god of war" or a "god of peace"? What is required of God to fill these position? What actions does he take (if any)?

(I'm not pursuing a point, this is just general curiosity)

(5th December 2008 22:42)LukeMC Wrote:  What does it mean to be a "god of war" or a "god of peace"? What is required of God to fill these position? What actions does he take (if any)?

(I'm not pursuing a point, this is just general curiosity)

War and peace?

(5th December 2008 17:19)Daystar Wrote:  So sin has no secular meaning because the religious one took it over, is that what you are saying?

Finally he gets it

Almost ... I'm saying it has no secular meaning at all, as such (although I am entirely capable of wrong doing) I am not capable of sin.

Kyu

I wouldn't say it has no "secular" meaning. There are plenty of secular theists who believe in sin. Sin certainly has no meaning to a non-believer though.

(6th December 2008 03:14)Daystar Wrote:  

(5th December 2008 22:42)LukeMC Wrote:  What does it mean to be a "god of war" or a "god of peace"? What is required of God to fill these position? What actions does he take (if any)?

(I'm not pursuing a point, this is just general curiosity)

War and peace?

Wow, deep.

What does that even mean? Does God send people to war? Does he orchastrate it? Is he a general or does he fight on the front line? What role does he play to make him a god of war? Likewise with peace.

(6th December 2008 13:18)Adrian Hayter Wrote:  I wouldn't say it has no "secular" meaning. There are plenty of secular theists who believe in sin. Sin certainly has no meaning to a non-believer though.

OK, I'm, probably confusing my words here, replace secular with "non-religious" and you get the idea

Kyu