The Stage is Yours.

[fr0d0]

Wow - real life took over! Apologies

To clarify, fr0d0, the deception of Allah never lies in Him deceiving about His nature, about His existence, about the Quran, nor anything related to Islam. Those are the things that we regard as the truth. Allah is also the Truth (Al-Haqq). However, Allah never deceives us in those key matters nor in matters of faith and worship. Rather, His deceptions were only against certain people who wanted to commit acts of aggression against the Prophet Muhammad and/or those who wanted to stop the spread of Islam.

In other words, Allah's deceptions consisted of helping the Muslims to create their own schemes in order to derail all the other schemes made by their enemies. This was only to protect His followers from those who were attacking them. As I said before, deception and scheming by itself is something evil, but when they are done for the purpose of derailing or outmaneuvering the evil plans of others, then it is positive. To me, that is a justifiable deception.

So, justifiable deception goes along with one of Allah's 99 attributes which is The Just (Al-Muqsit), and being Just (Al-Muqsit) doesn't negate Truth (Al-Haqq).

No I can't accept that answer Rayaan. Allah directly deceiving his believers, for whatever reason, even if it might be for the greater good, is still Allah lying. If he's truth.. then how can he lie? To me that's a fundamental I can't get past.

I don't want to go into explaining the same verses all over again because then I would have to explain to you the Arabic, transliteration, and all that stuff, and I find that to be quite a tedious and a laboring task for myself. I already explained them to you one time. It seems to me that your problems are only a result of a lack of knowledge of some of the semantic aspects of the verses.

You accept the crucial points as correct. It seems that the rubbing point is your acceptance.

And still, even though I appreciate that you answered the question, I find it very irrational that God would punish Himself for the sins of others by hanging on a cross. What kind of a logic is it to think that God would punish Himself? I mean, did he commit any crimes? Is He guilty of our sins? No, so, I don't understand why He would have to forgive our sins by making Himself go through so much pain and suffering.

If God committed the crimes deserving punishment, then he couldn't die as an innocent sacrifice, paying for the wrongdoings of others. Just like innocent animals are slaughtered as sacrifices.. it isn't them doing any wrong, but the person that had done wrong wanting to pay back their debt and purchase back their innocence so that they could placate God, with a clean slate.

So 1. We accept that humans are succeptable for failure, and 2. we have a very long tradition of sacrifice payment to rectify that. Jesus removed the need for sacrifice, which is the evolutionary step for religion.

I don't mean to insult your intelligence when I say this, though. It's just that it doesn't sound reasonable to me that a God would punish Himself.

I hope that answered your question. I'll try again if you could perhaps get more specific.

[Mystic]

Something to note, that in Islam, everything that happens in the design of things, is ultimately attributed to God.

For example, a person sins on his own, therefore disobeys God, therefore is lead astray, and has to turn back to guidance, the Quran says that is God whom leads astray and guides. Likewise, a person disbelieves in the true religion, it's not God forcing that, but it's attributed to God.

Likewise, all things that happen in nature, is attributed to God. Therefore, if people are deceived, it is said God deceives them. It's not necessarily, that God went of the way to deceive them. It's mainly stating the system deceived them and since God is the designer of the system, it attributes such deception to him.

Anyways, that is how tafsirs explain the issue of God guiding and misguiding people.

[fr0d0]

Yes thanks MK. I kinda have that understanding, and see parallels in Christianity. I'll say that everything is God, for example. I still maintain a separation, where God created, and the resistance to creation being not God. I also understand from Christianity that God created people with the ability to sin and love, as a perfect creation, and that through choice is the only mechanism to love. That without that choice, without the potentiality to love, love cannot result. Thanks for that input

[Mystic]

Yes thanks MK. I kinda have that understanding, and see parallels in Christianity. I'll say that everything is God, for example. I still maintain a separation, where God created, and the resistance to creation being not God. I also understand from Christianity that God created people with the ability to sin and love, as a perfect creation, and that through choice is the only mechanism to love. That without that choice, without the potentiality to love, love cannot result. Thanks for that input

No prob. Also Islam has perspective while everything is from God, the good is more so from God, while the evil is more so from man. There is verses in Suratal Nisaa that explains both these positions.

[ElDinero]

Take it as a no to my earlier post then, fr0d0. Figures.

[fr0d0]

Take it as a no to my earlier post then, fr0d0. Figures.

Hey mate! You CBA to read the thread. I CBA to respond to you.

[Reforged]

Take it as a no to my earlier post then, fr0d0. Figures.

Hey mate! You CBA to read the thread. I CBA to respond to you.

Looks like you CBA to come up with an actual answer no matter how simple the question huh fr0d0? Oh don't worry, its quirky really. Sometimes you're so entertaining I think you're a paid actor... then I realize; "No... no-one can mimic hereditary retardation *that* accurately." :-)

[ElDinero]

Hey mate! You CBA to read the thread. I CBA to respond to you.

So are you telling me that you did elaborate on that first post, and that reading through would lead me to your actual answer? Or is it just another diversionary tactic? Because you could just tell me where it is. Do you think I'm being unreasonable by not wanting to read through sixteen pages?

As ever, you could help the dialogue, but you'd rather evade. If you don't want to tell me where your answer is, I'll take it that my suspicions were well founded, and that no such explanation exists.

[fr0d0]

You make it sound like searching a persons posts is difficult Eld! I have elaborated, and I continue to elaborate all over the forum. To such a nebulous, half assed request, I'm afraid that was ny response. So bite me

[ElDinero]

Once again, the record will show that I asked a simple question, and got a standard fr0d0 answer. I assume that the elaboration is not in this thread. Since I've never seen it elsewhere, and we all know that any request for you to point me in the right direction will be met by more snide shit and emoticons, I trust that everyone will take this as confirmation that fr0d0 either cannot or will not elaborate on his original post in this thread in which he stated that Christianity was the only logical conclusion, without giving any reason as to why.