What is "FAITH"

[Godscreated]

@Consilius, thanks for your response, most of that was banter with Esqulax and sometimes with Ryan, I do get emotional sometimes.

[Rahul]

What I was trying to say is that I don't think stoning naughty kids is in the Bible.

Need to study up on your bible, friend.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.

[Consilius]

This isn't a naughty kid. This is a grown man who refuses to honor his parents in their old age. If he can get drunk and handle money, he is probably old enough to know this law in the first place and give his aging parents the respect they deserve.
Also, in Israelite society, a man with aging parents is required to take care of them until they die, so a man who is wasting money, getting drunk, and refusing to listen to his parents correction probably isn't taking care of his parents when they depend on him for survival, just like he once depended on them.
Respect for elders was a lot more meaningful back then and there than it is in the 21st century western world.

[Godscreated]

This isn't a naughty kid. This is a grown man who refuses to honor his parents in their old age. If he can get drunk and handle money, he is probably old enough to know this law in the first place and give his aging parents the respect they deserve.
Also, in Israelite society, a man with aging parents is required to take care of them until they die, so a man who is wasting money, getting drunk, and refusing to listen to his parents correction probably isn't taking care of his parents when they depend on him for survival, just like he once depended on them.
Respect for elders was a lot more meaningful back then and there than it is in the 21st century western world.

I would like to give you triple kudos, I've explained this several times here and yet no one wants to listen. Something else they miss in the verses, if it were children of young age, as they want to point out, then why are girls not mentioned, they were not expected to keep up their elderly parents and other such important things.

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What I was trying to say is that I don't think stoning naughty kids is in the Bible.

Need to study up on your bible, friend.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.

A Roman Catholic and a Southern Baptist agree on scripture, you guys do see that we study scripture and the history of the times, we desire to bring the truth of scripture to others. Pretending and lying only hurts everyone.

[Bad Writer]

So you both try to explain the age of the individual being stoned. The thing I personally take issue with is not the age of the person, but the reasons for putting the person to death.

Moses gets away with murdering an egyptian. A man gets killed for picking up sticks on the sabbath. The children of parents (no age specified, so we're talking age 0 and up) get stoned for bad behavior.

I know that saying these people may be adults seems to soften the blow, but you're just snowballing the whole thing and ignoring the bigger issues at hand.

[Consilius]

Moses was defending an Israelite slave. If he was angry, his anger was justified. Had his actions been wrong in any way despite that, so be it. No one said he was perfect. You don't need a Bible verse denouncing your actions or a scene where you are consumed by fire to know that you did something bad.
The man who picked up sticks on the sabbath had watched angel bread fall down from the sky yesterday. He had watched God send a flock of quails to his camp and had seen Moses cross a sea and get the Ten Commandments that had ordered him not to gather those sticks on a mountain. He had more reason to follow the laws Moses dictated and fear their penalties (not to mention that this was one of the central laws of Judaism and was pretty much reiterated ad nauseam) than pretty much anybody else. Don't equate his experiences with yours. He had a command and a penalty, and he chose to break the command. That's it. It wasn't a mistake. It was a willful disobedience of a member of a people that God needed to be his representatives on earth.
As for the stoning kids, no age specified? 8 year-olds don't get drunk and handle money in today's culture, let alone ancient Middle Eastern culture. His job is to take care of his aging parents when they can't take care of them, a job for a male, who can live on his own and support and defend himself, which is why a 'daughter' is not mentioned. If he does not take care of his parents in the middle of the desert where there is are no retirement homes or hospitals, they die. The parents depend on him like he depended on them when he was young. If he can disobey his parents with the knowledge of the penalty, he isn't going to fend for them when they need him.

[Esquilax]

None are completely correct and if any say they are they have deceived themselves. I've never made that claim, you've made it about me, but I've actually have said I know I'm not right about everything.

Don't you think that's important, though? I mean, given the stakes you think you're playing for, wouldn't you want to get as close to perfect as possible?

How do you know the doctrinal differences you looked up are actually correct, have you read the doctrinal constitutions of those denomination, or are you relying on others to tell you what they are. Those persons could being deceptive and you would have no idea. You are making claims to which you have not done your home work. Why did you say I was unreasonable, it was you who said you knew of thousands of differences between denominations. I took your word for it and figured you could bring up a few, but it's apparent you do not know the differences. You were making such a deal over denominational differences I thought you might like to go over some, but since you do not forget it.

Yeah, I'm not going to get into a dick measuring contest with you over bible knowledge, mostly because that's not the issue at hand, but also because I don't feel like arguing this point as though it's not the easy to see reality.

I go through the scriptures if I'm going to challenge a denominational difference, which I rarely do anymore, most are not important enough to fret over. If I do challenge I will find a verse that makes such a positive statement for or against and go from there to understand those verses that are less clear on that subject. But like I say as long as the denomination goes by scripture on salvation I pretty much do not worry about the rest. I differ greatly on hell and lost salvation as far as the Southern Baptist are concerned, am I correct or are they, maybe.

Not important? This is the word of god we're talking about!

Besides that, you talk like there's only one form of salvation, and that's not entirely true. The preconditions tend to change depending on who you talk to; I've spoken to some who think I'll get into heaven based on the strength of my works and character, and others who think I'm hellbound regardless because of my atheism. I've spoken to christians who feel my being bisexual won't earn me a place in hell- and who belong to congregations accepting of LGBT members- and I know of those who think even the most devout of gay christians will go to hell. The salvation doctrine is one of the trickiest parts, because it's one of the few that actually have real world consequences should it be true, yet still there's no consistent message.

You seem very blase about this, which is pretty standard for the religious I've found, but what if you die and you find, say, accepting evolution is a prerequisite for heaven? Wouldn't you want to have the best possible justification for your beliefs, preferably with evidence, before you do kick the bucket?

God will reveal in a very clear manner generally through His word what I've asked for, not always though. Sometimes it takes many weeks of study to see the answers, sometimes I get an immediate answer. Like last night I was comparing recorded ancient Assyrian history, to Biblical verses and stories to see how things would match up. I never read or study scripture without asking for God's guidance and revelation. I know when my questions about scripture are answered when many scriptures line up and show truth. Really it's hard to explain how I know when things are revealed as truth, I guess you would need to be in my shoes.

Personal experience isn't the greatest measure of a concept's truthfulness, though; after all, you aren't the only one having it. People have personal experiences with other gods all the time. Generally, we confirm the reality of our personal experiences through independent confirmation, else it's kind of hard to differentiate from something just in your head.

I've had the same manner of things done to me yet you guys see no problem with that.
I would never want anyone to suffer hell, if I did not care I would not try and show people God's truth, but when you or anyone else belittles me I'm going to get your attention, so when you irritate me expect at some time to hear from me, it's not always the Christian response, but then I'm human too.

What if it turns out threatening people with hell is an unforgiveable sin that just didn't make it into the bible? You'd go to hell!

[Rahul]

This isn't a naughty kid. This is a grown man who refuses to honor his parents in their old age. If he can get drunk and handle money, he is probably old enough to know this law in the first place and give his aging parents the respect they deserve.

He's a grown man? It just says son. That person could be 13 years old as far as you or I know.

Where do you glean that he is "grown"?

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A Roman Catholic and a Southern Baptist agree on scripture, you guys do see that we study scripture and the history of the times, we desire to bring the truth of scripture to others. Pretending and lying only hurts everyone.

I never agreed with Catholics back when I was a Southern Baptist. They worship graven images for crying out loud. And they pray to saints and the Virgin Mary. No self-respecting Southern Baptist would agree with that.

You theists are the ones pretending and lying. Just because you're gullible doesn't make it less of a lie. You're just passing on the lies without being truthful to yourself. That doesn't absolve you from the guilt of what you are doing to people.

[Bad Writer]

Justify Moses all you want; in the end he's still a mass murderer.

Are you also going to tell me that Elisha didn't order bears to jump out and maul a bunch of kids for calling him baldy, or that their sin was greater than what was actually written about?

[Godscreated]

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Moses was defending an Israelite slave. If he was angry, his anger was justified. Had his actions been wrong in any way despite that, so be it. No one said he was perfect. You don't need a Bible verse denouncing your actions or a scene where you are consumed by fire to know that you did something bad.
The man who picked up sticks on the sabbath had watched angel bread fall down from the sky yesterday. He had watched God send a flock of quails to his camp and had seen Moses cross a sea and get the Ten Commandments that had ordered him not to gather those sticks on a mountain. He had more reason to follow the laws Moses dictated and fear their penalties (not to mention that this was one of the central laws of Judaism and was pretty much reiterated ad nauseam) than pretty much anybody else. Don't equate his experiences with yours. He had a command and a penalty, and he chose to break the command. That's it. It wasn't a mistake. It was a willful disobedience of a member of a people that God needed to be his representatives on earth.
As for the stoning kids, no age specified? 8 year-olds don't get drunk and handle money in today's culture, let alone ancient Middle Eastern culture. His job is to take care of his aging parents when they can't take care of them, a job for a male, who can live on his own and support and defend himself, which is why a 'daughter' is not mentioned. If he does not take care of his parents in the middle of the desert where there is are no retirement homes or hospitals, they die. The parents depend on him like he depended on them when he was young. If he can disobey his parents with the knowledge of the penalty, he isn't going to fend for them when they need him.

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I'm afraid they will never learn, I'm not saying they do not understand what we say, I'm saying they will reject truth because it does not suit their self absorbed ways.