Ask a Bible college Student

[Catholic_Lady]

But the law does play a role bc it effects people's culpability. As far as you're concerned you did nothing wrong and the law agrees. I do not think people like you should go to jail. I do not think you are a bad person or a criminal. 

A more appropriate question would be whether I think it should be illegal to discard very young human beings conceived through IVF. And the answer to that is yes, I do. I think IVF should be done and handled in a way that is more in line with respecting the life of the individual. Being adopted out would be a much more ethical option imho. For those who choose to ignore the law and treat their IVF offspring in a way that is disrespectful to his/her life, yeah, I believe they should go to jail.

Wow, you're really doing your darnedest to dance around giving your actual opinion.  You don't think I'm a criminal, but you think what I've done should be illegal.  Do you see the problem?  If these were actual humans and it was illegal to discard them, then I would definitely be a criminal deserving of jail.  It's okay.  You can say it.

Do you know how IVF works?  You have to create more embryos than you need, because they're not all going to be equally viable.  You implant the ones that have the highest chance of becoming a pregnancy.  So, not only would you have to force some woman to carry the extra embryos, those that would usually be discarded already have a high chance of becoming miscarriages.  If you believe embryos are human, there's no way to have an IVF process that wouldn't involve crimes against people.

I'm not sure why you think I'm dancing around giving my opinion. I feel I made myself very clear... twice. Yeah, I think what you did should be illegal. But while it isn't, I don't think people who did it "deserve" to go to jail for doing something that they neither have a personal ethical objection to, or is against the law. I don't know what else you want me to say.  

As for the second part, that's why I'm ethically opposed to IVF, as I said earlier. Unless it can be done in a way that gives each offspring the respect it deserves as a human being, I don't think it should be done at all.

[abaris]

Why exactly do we have two threads on different topics derailed into discussing abortions now?

[Minimalist]

Beats me, Abs.  Personally I think abortion is an under-utilized tool and I don't give a flying fuck what the goddamn pope says.

[Faith No More]

I'm not sure why you think I'm dancing around giving my opinion. I feel I made myself very clear... twice. Yeah, I think what you did should be illegal. But while it isn't, I don't think people who did it "deserve" to go to jail for doing something that they neither have a personal ethical objection to, or is against the law. I don't know what else you want me to say.  

Because you're giving conflicting statements and falling back on the law instead of stating how you actually feel. I made it clear that my question had nothing to do with the law, yet you keep bringing it up.

What I want you to say is what you think the punishment should be based upon the fact that you think it's illegal and believe that I essentially murdered several humans. If you truly believe that embryos are humans just like everyone else, what you think should be the punishment for what I've done should reflect that. If you don't think I deserve 25 to life for each embryo, you're acknowledging that an embryo is different from a living, breathing human.

As for the second part, that's why I'm ethically opposed to IVF, as I said earlier. Unless it can be done in a way that gives each offspring the respect it deserves as a human being, I don't think it should be done at all.

So you're okay with saying that my kids never should have been born? That my kids exist only because of an immoral practice that never should have been allowed? Would you be able to look a child born through IVF in the eye and tell them that?

[Rosie_Rivets]

But I still do not view fetuses as people until certain criteria are met, most of which happens in the third trimester. Viability outside the womb, higher brain function, etc.

There are plenty of mentally handicapped people who never develop "higher brain function". Yet we don't question their humanity. Viability outside the womb depends on what kind of medical technology we have to keep them alive, and that changes with time. I don't see how it makes logical sense for that to be what someone's humanity hinges on. 

Anyway, here's a picture of a baby girl born prematurely. This is not third trimmester. This in the middle of the second trimmester, at 23 weeks. To clarify, are you saying then that the thing in the picture is not a person?

By "higher brain function" I do not mean intelligence. I mean the human brain is developed and is regularly firing neurons, which happens around the end of the second trimester. Now, the one thing we might have in agreement is neither of us likes late term abortion because we both view the developing fetus as a person (or damn near it) at this point. The silver lining is that most women don't get abortions that far into pregnancy unless there is a medical necessity or a fetal anomaly. Frankly, I think medically unnecessary abortions should not be done at a certain point, as do most people. Women who simply don't want to be pregnant get abortions long before that fetus comes close to being a person. Who would want to go through 20 some weeks of pregnancy before terminating? 

If a fetus can survive outside the womb at 23 weeks and grow into a healthy baby, that's great. If a woman chooses to terminate because it's discovered there is something wrong around that time, I support that. There should be a line drawn in the sand somewhere around that area, though, IMO. Do I know *exactly* where that line should be? No. Many states have opted to go with 20 weeks unless there is a medical need. 

I think what I'm most trying to convey is that I do not believe "life begins at conception", nor do I believe a fetus is a person on par with those of us outside the womb until later in pregnancy. 

As for technology keeping people alive, sometimes there is no person left to be kept alive. For instance, brain dead people are just shells of who they once were. The brain is the seat of humanity and what makes us each unique. Our humanity should not hinge on simply being able to keep flesh alive.

[LadyForCamus]

Wow, you're really doing your darnedest to dance around giving your actual opinion.  You don't think I'm a criminal, but you think what I've done should be illegal.  Do you see the problem?  If these were actual humans and it was illegal to discard them, then I would definitely be a criminal deserving of jail.  It's okay.  You can say it.

Do you know how IVF works?  You have to create more embryos than you need, because they're not all going to be equally viable.  You implant the ones that have the highest chance of becoming a pregnancy.  So, not only would you have to force some woman to carry the extra embryos, those that would usually be discarded already have a high chance of becoming miscarriages.  If you believe embryos are human, there's no way to have an IVF process that wouldn't involve crimes against people.

I'm not sure why you think I'm dancing around giving my opinion. I feel I made myself very clear... twice. Yeah, I think what you did should be illegal. But while it isn't, I don't think people who did it "deserve" to go to jail for doing something that they neither have a personal ethical objection to, or is against the law. I don't know what else you want me to say.  

As for the second part, that's why I'm ethically opposed to IVF, as I said earlier. Unless it can be done in a way that gives each offspring the respect it deserves as a human being, I don't think it should be done at all.

You're against IVF, CL? That makes me sad. A good friend of mine and her husband are DESPERATE to start a family. She's had several embryo transfers without success. It breaks my heart, because she wants to be a mother so badly. For some women, IVF is the only path to motherhood they may ever have. [emoji853]

[Catholic_Lady]

I'm not sure why you think I'm dancing around giving my opinion. I feel I made myself very clear... twice. Yeah, I think what you did should be illegal. But while it isn't, I don't think people who did it "deserve" to go to jail for doing something that they neither have a personal ethical objection to, or is against the law. I don't know what else you want me to say.  

Because you're giving conflicting statements and falling back on the law instead of stating how you actually feel.  I made it clear that my question had nothing to do with the law, yet you keep bringing it up.

What I want you to say is what you think the punishment should be based upon the fact that you think it's illegal and believe that I essentially murdered several humans.  If you truly believe that embryos are humans just like everyone else, what you think should be the punishment for what I've done should reflect that.  If you don't think I deserve 25 to life for each embryo, you're acknowledging that an embryo is different from a living, breathing human.

Again, it's about culpability. You didn't deliberately kill people when you did IVF, and neither was that even your intended outcome. You did nothing illegal and you don't even believe they were human beings. All this context greatly diminishes culpability and separates you from someone who goes out and murders people. While I believe it's just as tragic that they died as anyone else, I don't believe your role in it is anywhere equivalent to, say, a mass murderer.

As for how long a person should be in jail for doing it if it was illegal? I don't know. It's hard to say when we live in a world that doesn't value unborn human life in the same way. Aborting a baby, for example, doesn't make someone a bad person like murdering their neighbor does. Not because the life is any less sacred, but because of culpability. Because in our society they are not viewed as human beings in the way they should be. So people who get abortions are just doing what is normal and accepted in our society. They aren't criminals and they aren't bad people.

Perhaps really far down the future when society values the lives of the unborn and views them in the same way as born folks, the punishment should be the exact same. But while it doesn't, it can't be. Because we're just not there yet and so culpability isn't the same.    

As for the second part, that's why I'm ethically opposed to IVF, as I said earlier. Unless it can be done in a way that gives each offspring the respect it deserves as a human being, I don't think it should be done at all.

So you're okay with saying that my kids never should have been born?  That my kids exist only because of an immoral practice that never should have been allowed?  Would you be able to look a child born through IVF in the eye and tell them that?

No, I'm just sorry their siblings aren't here with them.

[Catholic_Lady]

I'm not sure why you think I'm dancing around giving my opinion. I feel I made myself very clear... twice. Yeah, I think what you did should be illegal. But while it isn't, I don't think people who did it "deserve" to go to jail for doing something that they neither have a personal ethical objection to, or is against the law. I don't know what else you want me to say.  

As for the second part, that's why I'm ethically opposed to IVF, as I said earlier. Unless it can be done in a way that gives each offspring the respect it deserves as a human being, I don't think it should be done at all.

You're against IVF, CL?  That makes me sad.  A good friend of mine and her husband are DESPERATE to start a family.  She's had several embryo transfers without success.  It breaks my heart, because she wants to be a mother so badly.  For some women, IVF is the only path to motherhood they may ever have.  [emoji853]

I'm against the lives that are lost as a result.

[Crossless2.0]

I'm against the lives that are lost as a result.

I'm against the little bastards too.

#Thejoyoftotallyignoringcontext

[Faith No More]

Again, it's about culpability. You didn't deliberately kill people when you did IVF, and neither was that even your intended outcome. You did nothing illegal and you don't even believe they were human beings. All this context greatly diminishes culpability and separates you from someone who goes out and murders people. While I believe it's just as tragic that they died as anyone else, I don't believe your role in it is anywhere equivalent to, say, a mass murderer.

As for how long a person should be in jail for doing it if it was illegal? I don't know. It's hard to say when we live in a world that doesn't value unborn human life in the same way. Aborting a baby, for example, doesn't make someone a bad person like murdering their neighbor does. Not because the life is any less sacred, but because of culpability. Because in our society they are not viewed as human beings in the way they should be. So people who get abortions are just doing what is normal and accepted in our society. They aren't criminals and they aren't bad people.

Perhaps really far down the future when society values the lives of the unborn and views them in the same way as born folks, the punishment should be the exact same. But while it doesn't, it can't be. Because we're just not there yet and so culpability isn't the same.      

Why are you now bringing society's view into this?  I'm asking what you think.  How our society views it is irrelevant.

Here's the thing, if you want to be consistent in your views, I did deliberately kill people.  The doctor straight up asked us what we wanted to do with the remaining embryos.  The choices were to keep them frozen(expensive), donate them for research or discard them.  We chose to donate them, meaning they would eventually be destroyed.  If you believe those are humans, I knowingly sent people to their death.  I am as culpable as any other murderer.  Do I deserve life imprisonment for that?

No, I'm just sorry their siblings aren't here with them.

Well, if it was up to you, IVF would be illegal, correct?  You believe people shouldn't be allowed to use the process, correct?  My children would never have been born without it, therefore, you believe my kids should have never been born.

I'm starting to get the feeling you haven't really thought the logical consequences of your beliefs on IVF and embryos through...