Miracle

[Harris]

Yes we can. Post hoc reasoning. You inferring things that aren't there in an archaic nonsensical 'holy' book from your contemporary knowledge of the current

The end.

One special feature I have noticed in you guys. You love to concoct ideas enthused by your desires and then follow them subject to your senses, over an imaginary path of your dreams. In due course, you reduce any feature of the ethical life to a question something like "Is there an attribute?" if it comes in conflict with your desires.

That is the reason none of you guys able to give references with your arguments because you are talking about non-cognitive factors such as desires and emotions using universalistic claims and the like that interfere with rational choices.

Unfortunately, your POST HOC, AD HOC, THIS HOC, and THAT HOC are imprudent without pertinent references.

So, proof by assertion, and an argument from incredulity is what you replace it with?

Cool reasoning bro. Tell it again? Oh BTW, we both occupy the same 'realm', the realm where reality has repeatedly testes every single one of your claims and found them to be false without exception. What a brilliant track record your religion has, so convincing >_>

Please give only one justifiable, warranted, and rational reason based on observations, theoretical desiderata, and without any imperfection which can convey the idea, without any BUT, that atheist actuality is largely a matter of chance and you popped out from NOWHERE without any reason and would perish into NOTHINGNESS without any reason.

Yes, repeatedly, over several threads. You're just too dense to comprehend how "Random post hoc reasoning therfore [my personal] deity" doesn't even go a millionth of the way towards making what you say true. Using fallacy laden assertions to 'evidence' you view that you very specific personal deity created everything is, at best, utterly ridiculous and at worse shamefully ignorant. You should be ashamed of yourself living in the 21st century yet clinging to the very obviously false mythologies of the 7th.

Show me a single statement in ANY THREAD in which you or anyone had given a flawless rational reasoning along with proof, evidence, and reference which gives clear cognisant vision on “MR X WROTE MODERN SCIENTIFIC FACTS IN 7TH CENTURY QURAN”

Again, Post hoc reasoning.

You are confident on the idea that people wrote Quran. I do not think your confidence rely on mere assumptions and you do not have a solid reason behind that belief. The only thing you have to do is exposing that SOLID REASON and that is it. It should not be a difficult task for you.

Instead of repeating “POST HOC” million times, just give one clear evidence, which can prove that Quran is the work of man.

Oh ok sorry, I didn't realise that "Sent down" definitely means sent down as a foreign element to earth and there was no other interpretation to it.

This means Muhammad, rain, manna, quails, clothing and cattle are foreign elements to earth according to the quran.

This means the quran is incorrect because Muhammad, quails clothing and cattle are definitely not foreign to earth.

Please quote verses with the phrase “SENT DOWN”, and I will tell you which of those “SENT DOWNS” are FOREIGN and which not. Unlike you and as always, I will give you REFERENCES and EXAMPLES so you will not feel yourself in a WONDERING STATE.

Yes and the quran revealed none of this information, it all had to be discovered using medical science.

Interesting point is none of you guys can give a single historical reference on numbness, 3rd degree burn, and skin as pain receptor yet you adamantly reject Quran which evidently revealed the reality of skin at the time when all people were blaming “HEART” for their painful miseries after having experiences of burn.

Now can you answer my question that you keep avoiding, would ancient people have experienced the symptoms of 3rd degree burns?

Do you know people can see by their skins, smell sounds, taste words and see numbers as colours? Yes! That is true and this phenomenon is known as synaesthesia. No one knows how skin generate real world vision in mind. Can you give any explanation how synaesthesia is happening? I am sure you cannot.

Likewise, ancient people were experiencing pain caused by burn but they were not conscious of degrees of burn, numbness, and properties of skin. A good evidence is, as I said earlier, THEY WERE BLAMING HEART FOR ALL THEIR PAINFUL MISERIES. They had no idea about 3rd degree burn just as you do not have any idea about synaesthesia.

Quran is the only historical document that accurately points to the SKIN by totally ignoring HEART for the cause of pain when skin burn. This information is contrary to what everyone was thinking at the time it revealed in Quran. However and unfortunately, people had not given any attention to Quran until after centuries scholars had discovered this fact by natural means.

Iron is not a foreign element to Earth; meteoritic iron is. The Earth's core is made of - ah, fuck it.

1. “Extrapolating from observations of the cooling of the inner core, it is estimated that the current solid inner core formed approximately 2 to 4 billion years ago from what was originally an entirely molten core. If true, this would mean that THE EARTH'S SOLID INNER CORE IS NOT A PRIMORDIAL FEATURE THAT WAS PRESENT DURING THE PLANET'S FORMATION, BUT A FEATURE YOUNGER THAN THE EARTH (the Earth is about 4.5 billion years old).”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner_core

2. “Theia's iron core would have sunk into the young Earth's core, and most of Theia's mantle accreted onto the Earth's mantle.”

Under the heading “Basic model”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_impact_hypothesis

3. https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2...iron-core/

4. http://education.nationalgeographic.com/...edia/core/

If you look at random data with sufficient depth, you will find whatever patterns you are looking for.
It's not like the Quran is the only text that has religious bias and people with enough spare time to find spurious, false positive correlations.
Like finding faces in clouds or on the mountains of mars.

Jews do it--a lot--https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_code

Crazy Christians do it---
in elizabethan english http://www.revelation13.net/KingJames.html
in aramaic---http://www.biblecodedigest.com/page.php?PageID=418
and in greek---http://www.greaterthings.com/Word-Number...#1770-1792

Cheap computing power and public algorithms in recent years has given endless numbers of crackpots the ability to spew meaningless garbage over the internet.

Secular folk do it to show the data it 'reveals' is coincidental (or there are 'miracles' everywhere.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_code
Quote:Australian television personality John Safran and McKay again demonstrated the "tuning" technique, demonstrating that these techniques could produce "evidence" of the September 11 terrorist attacks on New York in the lyrics of Vanilla Ice's repertoire.
http://www.apollowebworks.com/atheism/theomatics.html
Quote:So, I decided to run the program on a ridiculously UNholy text. Casting around for inspiration, I decided to copy the famous chain letter scam written by Dave Rhodes years ago, entitled "Make Money Fast". You can read the letter by clicking here.

I got lots and lots of phrases that were divisible by 111. Most were nonsense by themselves, but I managed to cull out several that were quite meaningful.

You just have to have relaxed standards for what you will accept as remarkable and a real drive to find what you want to find.
Confirmation bias and the Texas sharpshooter fallacy do this nicely.

You need to predict something that has not yet happened for your method to be true or useful.
Your statement that
"we do not have access to all that information because whether information is in a coded form or we are not yet matured to understand it."
Is simply an ad-hoc bogus rationalization of your inability to accurately predict future events which is the only possible, and to date, completely unproven, useful function of prophesy.

A. The literal meanings of the verses in Quran are more than enough to manifest the divine nature of Quran.

“Or (the Unbelievers' state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hands, he can hardly see it! for any to whom Allah giveth not light, there is no light!”
An Nuur (24)
-Verse 40-

This is an exceptionally accurate depiction of how ocean looks at different levels of its depth. Any one before 1930s did not know these facts.

B. Other miraculous feature is that the literal meanings of the verses, their reference numbers, and number of word repetition perfectly coincide with the data of modern findings.

For example:
Based on the irregularities in Sirius’ orbit, scientists discovered it is actually a binary star and named them as Sirius A and Sirius B.

The motion paths of stars in Sirius system is like two bows rotating around each other and takes 49.9 years to complete one full cycle.

This scientific fact is discovered at the end of 20th century and confirmed by the astronomy departments at the universities of Harvard, Ottawa and Leicester
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirius

Miraculously, this astronomical phenomenon is mentioned in Surah Al Najam (Chapter “STAR”) of Quran.

“That He is the Lord of Sirius (the Mighty Star);”
An-Najm (53)
-Verse 49-

“And was at a distance of but TWO BOW-LENGTHS or (even) nearer;”
An-Najm (53)
-Verse 9-

The name Sirius is mentioned in verse 49 and the distance is indicated by TWO BOW-LENGTHS in verse 9 and these two numbers exactly coincide with the course length that is 49.9 years.

C. Yet another miracle of Quran is the arrangement of letters, words, and verses in particular order, sequences and mathematical patterns. To find mathematical arrangements in Quran only rudimentary counting methods are sufficient. There is no requirement to invent crazy computer algorithm that would do nothing more than pace around hot porridge like a cat. Anyone who has experience in counting Arabic words and letters can easily perform this task with pen and paper only.

One such method of counting is based on counting the letters of each word in a phrase and then aligning them together to form a single number, without adding, subtracting or multiplying. For example:

“I ate pizzas today”

The letter count of each word would produce the following arrangement:

I ate pizzas today
1 3 6 5

The resulting number is 1365 which is a multiple of 7:

1365 = 195 x 7

or

Ocean is large
5 2 5

525 = 75 x 7

You may ask, is not it easy for any person to construct sentences by making careful choices of words so the letter count will always give a multiple of 7?

The answer is no. No person can ever produce literature that is not only of the highest calibre linguistically, but also contains a complex numeric system organised to perfection.

Consider you are planning to write an article and you are asked to make sentences so the count of letters in each sentence should give a multiple of seven without disturbing eloquence of the text.

What is the time scale needed for such a design?
What are the odds?

Structuring sentences in a way that the total count of letters in each sentence gives multiple of seven then placing each word in its intended location to preserve the meaning and consistency of the text and writing whole essay using this specific arrangement would be a true miracle if accomplished.

One particular feature of this method of writing is the order of words, which is uncompromising. If in such a sentence any word is replaced by other word then it will drastically change the meaning where the sentence may become meaningless, or the sentence would no longer preserve the letter count that can match the multiple of seven.

Few examples:

1. First verse of Quran is:

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
6 6 4 3

“In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful”

6643 = 949 x 7

2. First Chapter of Quran is “The Opening Chapter”

This chapter has 7 verses and the letter count (including the first verse mentioned above) gives:

4202302220422020022123340233331, which is a perfect numeral of 7

4202302220422020022123340233331 = 600328888631717146017620033333 x 7

3. Each verse ends on a specific word in the first chapter of Quran. By aligning the number of letters of all these specific words in a sequence, we have:

7 8 6 5 6 7 6, which is a multiple of 7:

7865676 = 1123668 x 7

But that is not all, because the result is also a multiple of 7:

1123668 = 160524 x 7

And this result is also a multiple of 7:

160524 = 22932 x 7

And this result is again a multiple of 7:

22932 = 3276 x 7

This result is yet again a multiple of 7:

3276 = 468 x 7

In other words, our original number 7865676 is a multiple of 7 five times!

7865676 = 468 x 7 x 7 x 7 x 7 x 7

But what about this final number 468? Can we take it any further?

This number can in fact be broken down into five prime numbers:

468 = 13 x 3 x 3 x 2 x 2

And amazingly, arranging these five prime numbers into a single 6-digit number produces a multiple of 7:

133322 = 19046 x 7

Hence, we can arrange our original number of 7865676, with the number of letters in specific ending words of each verse in following manner:

7865676 = 13 x 3 x 3 x 2 x 2 x 7 x 7 x 7 x 7 x 7

If we arrange the above results into a single 11-digit number, we yet again arrive at a multiple of 7!

13332277777 = 1904611111 x 7

And if that was all not enough then taking the digit sum of this 11-digit number would give a result that again is a multiple of 7!

1 + 3 + 3 + 3 + 2 + 2 + 7 + 7 + 7 + 7 + 7 = 49

49 = 7 x 7

Can all this magnificence be taken as mere product of coincidence?

Study of chapter one alone, revealed over 50 multiples of 7.

Considering the probability of coincidence, the chance that these multiples were the product of luck is about (7^-1 x 10^-50)!

“Say: "If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.””
Al Israa' (17)
-Verse 88-

Still no one has told me how we know they didn't get this "information" from an alien, a talking magic frog or special truth-giving chemicals. How did all these possibilities get crossed off the list leaving just one specific comic book character?
"Because goat touchers say so" is not sufficient.

Let me suggest you an exercise for your BRAINOBIC:

Ponder over the cause of everything you know. Then try to find causal relations between relevant things. After that ponder over your own cause and your own causal relations with other things and then give a question.

Am I a product of CHANCE?

Exactly wrong. Science is an organized system of physical observation and inquiry. Therefore, if the "facts" in the Quran are science, they were made by people making physical observations-- the exact opposite of miracle. Here are the possibilities as I see them:

The writers of the Quran knew some things, or knew people who knew some things, and included them in the Quran.

You are repeating the same mistake on and on. These scientific facts are not trivial even in today’s world. How comes someone have found these facts in seventh century and remained indifferent to them.

The writers of the Quran said a bunch of things that you or others interpret as science, but which only appear so to you because of confirmation bias.

I had given you nine verses. Selects any verse of your choice and prove it a misrepresentation of the real scientific fact.

The writers of the Quran operated on revelation, in which Allah revealed the truth to them, but which they lacked the capacity to understand and therefore were unable to express in any detail that a modern educated person would find sufficient.

Modern educated person should concentrate on the morals and human values, which is the real message of Quran in place of searching means of somatic comfort in it.

Your position is 3. You think the Quran is miraculous, because people who couldn't have known things nevertheless wrote them down.

It was not in the competence of seventh century people to write anything about modern scientific discoveries. People were able to make these modern discoveries only with the help of special scientific tools and equipment, which were not available to ancient people. You cannot bring real evidence to support the idea that ancient people had the knowledge about present day scientific facts and exactly that inability of yours is the proof that Quran is a Miracle.

My position is a mix of 1 and 2: first, the Arabs were not nearly as uneducated or unobservant as you think they were, and so they did something actually resembling science, even in those early days; they followed the Romans, who had libraries FULL of physical observations and scientific discoveries, drawn from all over the Roman empire and its millions of citizens. Second, you cherry pick this or that sentence, and explain a meaning which you say is clear, but is not clear to anyone who doesn't already hold your position; obvious bias is obvious bias.

Just bring one evidence showing that someone had put all that scientific information in Quran in seventh century.

The problem with your position is that the "science" in the Quran is of such spotty and poor quality that it serves no real use. It is just barely enough of a hint that you can read into it what you want; it offers nothing beyond that: no improvement to the quality of human life, no information sufficiently detailed that an unbiased 3rd party can establish it to represent actual scientific knowledge.

You are also very clearly guilty of special pleading. You claim the Quran is miraculous in that it talks about orbiting bodies; but you then say "It's not a scientific textbook" when the most important detail of all, that the Earth orbits the sun, is completely omitted.

Again repeating, out of nine verses choose any verse of your choice and show that it is not speaking about real Science of today’s world.

I'm constantly amazed that such a devout muslim has such a low opinion of the Arabs of that time. You seem to think they were ignorant fucking idiots. Anyway, I'm trying to make a match between people with eyes, language, and oceanside cliffs, who could have observed the apparent barrier between river and ocean water, based on its color.

I am surprised on your confidence, which is merely based on your assumptions and speculations. You are giving great assurances that those RETARDED people had the knowledge of modern scientific discoveries. However, more interestingly, with all your modern facilities and knowledge, you cannot bring a single RETARDED IDIOT from ancient times to show yes, someone had seen halocline and here is the record.

Not only Arabs but all ancient people were RETARDED DONKEYS because (according to you) they had the knowledge of our modern day scientific discoveries and yet they had no internet, no trains, no aeroplanes, no mobile devices, etc. Not a single RETARDED DONKEY was capable to record at least a single statement in the entire human history about two bodies of different waters flowing together without mixing in each other.

Harris Wrote:
The things, which are obvious to you, were not obvious to them. For example, you know what stars are but to ancient people it was not obvious to what they are looking at, in the night sky.

Bennyboy Wrote:
Why take this example, when it is not currently being discussed?

Because you are constantly comparing yourself with ANCIENT DOLTS.

Who cares? I am not disputing who mentioned the halocline. I'm disputing that either the halocline, or its discovery and expression, was an act of your fairy tale god.

You are not disputing because you cannot dispute. If you think otherwise then go ahead and dispute by showing who had written about halocline in Quran and on which dune or mountain in Arabian Desert he had observed that phenomenon.

It's also factually inaccurate. Man is created out of sperm and egg, neither of which is a clot of congealed blood. This is the part, now, where you special plead: "Yeah, but the Quran is not a science textbook."

If you do not understand then ask before giving any comment. This verse is talking about one of the developing stages of human body.

“O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you;”
Al Hajj (22)
-Verse 5-

“Man We did create from a quintessence (of clay);
Then We placed him as (a drop of) sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed;
Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; then of that clot We made a (foetus) lump; Then We made out of that lump bones and clothed the bones with flesh; Then We developed out of it another creature. So blessed be Allah, the best to create!”

Al Mu'minuun (23)
-Verses 12, 13, 14-

“For them will be Gardens of Eternity; beneath them rivers will flow; they will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold, and they will wear green garments of fine silk and heavy brocade: They will recline therein on raised thrones. How good the recompense! How beautiful a couch to recline on!”
Al Kahfi (18)
-Verse 30 – 31-

That sounds fantastic! Literally.

That is not a fantasy but a reality. That is a response to your depiction of Muslims. You had presented them as savage beings who enjoy burning others. Moreover, Quran is not the work of man.

However, while giving that portrayal to Muslims you had totally ignored the recent holocausts, which were carried out by atheist dictators along with their atheist supporters. The mass destruction and slaughter made by atheists is incomparable to any crime of the world.

And indeed We have adorned the nearest heaven with lamps, and We have made such lamps (as) missiles to drive away the Shayatin (devils), and have prepared for them the torment of the blazing Fire.

Lamps which are also used as missiles to fire at devils.

Plus this verse shows whoever wrote the Quran has a strange understanding of the sun and the moon.

Do you agree with this statement or not:

“The things, which are obvious to you, were not obvious to them. For example, you know what stars are but to ancient people it was not obvious to what they are looking at, in the night sky.”

Let me know your opinion and I will give you what you have requested.

Quote:It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law).

Unless the quran is saying that the sun and the moon are rotating around the earth at opposite sides of the earth and can't catch up to one another this verse makes no sense.

It is only your desire to see this verse the way you want it to be but unfortunately, it is merely a desire.

paulpablo Wrote:
Plus this verse shows whoever wrote the quran has a strange understanding of the sun and the moon.

Bennyboy Wrote:
Here's the thing. The stuff that is basically correct (or can be made to sound correct with a bit of word salad), is a "miracle." The stuff that is wrong or conspicuously absent (like the fact that the EARTH also revolves in an orbit) is a parable, or "The Quran isn't a science textbook. The science is so miraculous that it doesn't need detailed facts, or any practical application. It just has to convince me that my Momma's religion is the right one."

Ambiguous BS + word salad + special pleading = Allah is great!

You are trying to device false dichotomies.

Did you ever see Science Tutorials in Law Books? Law books may use science as reference but that reference cannot be used for teaching only Science.

“Or (the Unbelievers' state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hands, he can hardly see it! for any to whom Allah giveth not light, there is no light!”
An Nuur (24)
-Verse 40-

The main theme of this verse is not science but immorality of a disbelieving person. To emphasize the darkness of immorality in a disbelieving person, this verse gives metaphor of true darkness at the depth of a deep ocean.

But, this scientific discovery is quiet recent therefore, this verse, in fact, is targeted to the disbelief and immorality of people of the present world who have good sound idea about the darkness at the depth of a deep ocean. By using metaphor of deep ocean darkness, this verse conveys one more idea that with the increase in knowhow of material world, the disbelief and immorality of people would become stronger and prudent and that exactly is the case today.

Secular world is spending most of the world’s resources in making intelligent weapons and in finding ways on how to slaughter more people effectively and efficiently. Secular world is not spending those resources to eliminate hunger, disease, and illiteracy from the world. Good recent examples of such dark immoralities are the deeds of atheist regimes of 19th and 20th centuries.

Created from blood clots? What nonsense is this How does that even remotely resemble a concrete *nontrivial* prediction about anything in embryology. And by nontrivial I mean beyond the fact that embryos have blood that can in principle clot.

I'd say what is miraculous is how the level of scholarship has declined in the muslim world after such auspicious beginnings...

The Arabic word “Alaqah” has three meanings.

1. Leech
2. A suspending thing
3. A blood clot

“Alaqah” is also taken as early stage of embryo. Embryo during “Alaqah” stage goes through well known internal events, such as the formation of blood in closed vessels, until the metabolic cycle is completed through placenta. During the “Alaqah” stage, the blood is caught within closed vessels and that is why the embryo acquires the appearance of a blood clot, in addition to the leech like appearance. Both descriptions are miraculously given by a single word in Quran “Alaqah.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Alaq

I just realized something about appeals to "miracles." Coincidences (a remarkable concurrence of events or circumstances without apparent causal connection) can happen even if a god exists. Coincidences can't be ruled out a priori in the way apologists would like.

In nature, coincidences happen rarely whereas Quran is full of so-called coincidences.