Miracle

[Harris]

Harris Wrote:
However, the phenomenon, which are mentioned in Quran, are not discernible through simple unaided observations. For example, celestial bodies moving on fixed round paths, heavens and earth were one unit of creation before God clove them asunder, Expanding universe, Solar apex, Deep ocean currents, Human embryo and its stages of development, etc.

Bennyboy Wrote
Exactly ALL of those things are observable, except for the fairy tale about God cleaving things asunder.

You are now trying to give a twist to the reality. Celestial bodies moving on fixed round paths, Expanding universe, solar apex, Currents at the depth of Deep Ocean, Human embryo and its stages of development are the phenomena that cannot be observed without special scientific tools.

God is not “cleaving things asunder” but has separated heavens and earth, which were one unit of creation. To this concept, scientists had given a name i.e. “BIG BANG,” which is not a fairy tale.

Deepity. As I said, we all know, literally every culture, that food comes from the ground and that we grow from it. This is not a miraculous discovery or revelation.

See! Creation of Adam (first human) from Clay is not a fairy tale.

You keep saying that, and you keep being wrong. The "science" of the Quran is so hopefully lacking in detail or background that it cannot be said to represent any especial knowledge.

Quran is a book of law that gives warnings to the culprits and announces rewards to the righteous people. Modern scientific facts in Quran authenticate the idea that Quran is the word of God. The purpose of mentioning those scientific facts is not to provide science education. Although I have repeated it million times, yet you are singing your song in a single tone.

First of all, I'm not an atheist. I just find your particular argument about your fairy tale book unconvincing. There's clearly nothing miraculous about it.

As for hedonism, stfu. I'm married, work, and live a respectable life. I drink maybe one or two beers a month. I could as easily categorize YOU as a pissed-off virgin Arab who hopes that holding on to a holy book will land him a reward of 72 virgins. By the way, though, if you've ever been with ONE virgin, 72 of them wouldn't seem like such a prize.

When I use “you (atheist)” that is not you in particular but atheist in general including you.

Virgins are a very small part of the recompense that God will bestow upon righteous believers.

Nothing can be a better reward than Mercy and propinquity of God.

“Then, as to those who believed and did righteous deeds, their Lord will admit them to His Mercy that will be the achievement for all to see.”
Al Jaatsiyah (45)
-Verse 30-

“If only thou couldst see when the guilty ones will bend low their heads before their Lord, (saying) "Our Lord! We have seen and we have heard: Now then send us back (to the world) we will work righteousness: for we do indeed (now) believe."”
As Sajdah (32)
-Verse 12-

I didn't say they had buses. I said YOU could easily go to the sea and instantly establish that halocline is observable. If you think Arabs never saw the ocean, or never talked to people who had, then you're ignorant.

Why do you insist on insulting the intelligence and capabilities of the founder of your religion? I find it ironic that in your attempt to prove your fairy tale, you are much more disrespectful to Muhammed and the other early muslims than I am.

1. Despite the fact you bitterly fail to bring any genuine evidence that may disprove Quran to be the Word of God, you are consistent in showing your contempt and great disrespect by making Quran equivalent to cheap fairy tale.

2. God has chosen Prophet Mohammad to be a His messenger and through him sends Quran to whole of humanity. It is very illogical to accuse a firm believer in God and Quran for disrespecting God’s messenger(s).

“O Prophet! Truly We have sent thee as a Witness, a Bearer of Glad Tidings, and Warner,-”
Al Ahzab (33)
-Verse 45-

“Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect.”
Al Ahzab (33)
-Verse 56-

3. You can speculate whatever you like but that will not change the facts. Ancient people did not know about reality of Halocline even if someone had seen one. That is the reason no one has ever recorded this fact. Today, people are documenting this phenomenon because they understand it and want to share their understandings with others.

4. Look at the map and you will not find any river in huge region in and around Arabian Peninsula. On top of that, if you look at the history of pre Islamic Arabia, you will find that Arabs were not very close to Egyptians, Romans, and Persians. They perhaps, occasionally meet for the purpose of trade and that is it. Therefore, there is no chance that any Roman, Greek, or Persian had ever told those Arabs about Halocline which they themselves did not understand.

I didn't say they were literate. I said they had language, and communicated with those around them. Do you really believe that the Arabs had no exposure to Western culture? Maybe you should study history, not only the Quran, because you are showing serious ignorance of fact.

I think it would be better for you if you study little bit about History of pre Islamic Arabia.

I didn't say they had "proper education." I said they had access to people from outside cultures who could report simple facts-- like the effect of a river running into an ocean.

Irrational reasoning. There is no record in Greek, Roman, and Persian histories of two different bodies of water flowing together without mixing. If these nations were their selves not aware of this fact then how comes someone of them had informed this to Arabs, who were living million miles away from any river.

If that is a simple fact then why in 1960s scientists have invented a special term “Halocline” for this phenomenon after the silence of entire history. Why people are interested to visit sites where they could view real Halocline if that is something ordinary and simple.

As a marginally educated person, I guess you would know.

Today, even many illiterate Africans know about Big Bang.

This seems to be the essence of your entire argument: "Early Arabs were do-nothing, know-nothing, thoughtless morons. Therefore anything good that came from them must be a miracle." That is a weak argument, as well as insulting to Muhammed and the others. Go to your mosque and tell your imam that you think Muhammed was an uneducated moron. See what happens.

Do not put your words in my mouth. I cannot call Prophet Mohammad a moron; you are the one who is saying that. Prophet Mohammad was an illiterate person and you may get confirmation on this fact from any Muslim around you and from any historian.

“And thou wast not (able) to recite a Book before this (Book came), nor art thou (able) to transcribe it with thy right hand: In that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities have doubted.”
Al 'Ankabuut (29)
-Verse 48-

Again, you appeal primarily to ignorance. You do not in fact know what they knew or didn't know, or who they did or didn't communicate with. Nor have you established that most of the scriptures you have quoted even talk about what you insist they talk about.

Let me summarise everything in one phrase.

Quran cannot be the work of man.

“Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.”
An Nisaa (4)
-Verse 82-

“This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah. on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the worlds.”
Yunus (10)
-Verse 37-

You said the quran says it is necessary for skin to be replaced in order for a person to feel pain, I then tell you the quran doesn't say it is necessary it says god will replace the skin in order to inflict a punishment, you reply with something that has nothing to do with what we were talking about then replace what we were talking about with a question of your own.

First explain why you're claiming the quran says it is necessary for a persons skin to be replaced in order for them to feel pain when that isn't the way it is phrased in the quran at all.

Do you understand the difference between something being necessary and someone using one of many methods in order to do something? And you have a vague understanding of English it seems so you know what you said is incorrect?

So if many organs sense pain and skin is just one of these many organs who reports these sensations to the brain then how can you not see that the brain is the main organ responsible for the punishment infliction of pain?

Just as the quran doesn't use the word "Necessary" it also doesn't use the word pain.
It says taste the punishment, taste the torment, taste the penalty, taste the chastisement.
Since the brain can sense torment from other organs besides skin that makes the brain the most important organ, if there's a break inbetween an area of the body and the brain then that area of the body will sense no pain, for example in cases of spinal injury.
In a spinal injury all of the pain receptors remain in tact, the body part is still there, but the brain cannot sense anything so you do not feel the punishment.
The only so called miraculous information so far discovered in the quran is that skin is the most important organ in sensing burning in a situation when skin is being burned. In other words, like I said at the beginning of the thread, the miracle is basically that burning your skin hurts, which people already know.
You still haven't answered the question.... do you think people in ancient times suffered from the symptoms of intense burns ever?

This must be the 5th or 6th time I've asked the same question now.

If you have trouble in understanding simple, rational, and logical concepts then I am sorry I cannot help you anymore.

Here I summarise all of my responses in few points for the last time.

1. DEGREES of BURN is a scale that doctors have invented to estimate and suggest curing methods. In ancient times people did not know about this scale. Therefore, no one was experiencing DEGREES of BURN. They only were feeling pain. The end.
2. Do you think in today’s world someone while experiencing a burn is able to think about what DEGREES BURN he/she is experiencing? At such moments, there is only one thought in every victims mind and that is “HELP!” Try to burn your hand on the fire where you cook food and while experiencing that burn, try to think about what DEGREE BURN you are getting. Even Dawkins would fail to recall his precious scientific knowledge about DEGREES of BURN at that moment. Therefore, no one experience DEGREES of BURN. They only feel pain. The end.
3. Without sensory organs brain cannot see, taste, smell, hear, and feel the touch. If brain was able to generate all these senses without the help of respective organs then no one had any idea about the concept of blindness. Brain is important only when it has organs that feed it sensory signals. No skin no pain therefore skin is important for having sense of pain. Quran mentioned this fact without any ambiguity.

Bullshit. I'm missing nine fingers and I can feel pain in them. The brain doesn't require sensory input to feel pain.

Is that mimicking pain equivalent to the real physical pain or is it only remanence of old habits? Can a blind see or can a deaf gets thrilled by some jubilant music?

Harris Wrote:
“If there is no God who is Uncaused then there should be “Nothingness” as things cannot cause their own beings. If “Nothingness” exist out of which everything is popping out spontaneously and then vanishing back into it, then everything is part of “Nothingness.” However, everything is “Something” therefore “Something” cannot be “Nothing” hence, “Nothingness” is a THOROUGH ABSURD. If “Nothingness” does not exist then there should exist an UNCAUSED GOD.”

IATIA Wrote:
That is opinion.

This is a strong logic not an opinion. Give a try to contradict.

No proof or even evidence. The universe can be "uncaused' quite more easily than a god.

The total energy of the universe is zero, ergo 'nothing'.

Let us say total energy of the universe is zero therefore “NOTHING.” That means YOU as part of universe, which is “NOTHING,” is “NOTHING” i.e. you are “NOT SOMETHING.”
ABSURD!

By saying Universe can be uncaused you are totally undermining Big Bang Theory which is proven true by means of phenomenon of expanding universe and cosmic microwave background radiation.

There is no proof. There is only evidence that suggests a hypothesis of a "Big Bang". There have been structures identified that are too "old" to have started after the "big bang". Few mainline theories incorporate a singularity anymore, but rather an explosion of space-time itself, ergo the lack of a center to the universe.

For the sake of argument, let us say universe is uncaused, which references no external principle or agency to account for it. In this case, you should clear up following points.

1. If universe is “Uncaused” then why everything in it is caused and contingent? Is not universe an assembly of matter, which is not “Uncaused?”
2. If universe is “Uncaused” that means universe has no past and no future.
3. If every action in the universe can be taken as free from being predetermined even then every action cannot be taken as uncaused, because everything itself, as agents, are the cause. Therefore, everything that occurs is predetermined on the physical level, or else there must be some break in the continuity of such physical causation.
4. Nothing which is the result of causes can have its existence inherent in itself. If something were inherently existent it would be permanently (that is, necessarily) existent.

By the way, thank you for you Quran download page Harris. I own a physical copy of the the Yusuf Ali Quran, and have done for a while now, just so you know. However, I was actually looking for a Quran for my mobile phone so this would be very useful. Having said that, I'm not sure my mobile phone is a clean, respectable, place to store a Quran. Then again, I'm not superstitious enough to put my Quran on the top shelf, so why should that worry me?

What amazes me is that if we were to list the various flaws in the Bhagavad Gita or the Bible, Harris would agree with them (if the Quran doesn't have the same problem, such as Noah's flood). Why is it that religionists can only see flaws in the religions of others? Still, Harris clings onto that joke we know as Keith Moore. Harris is not sincere.

You have used the word FLAWS. Do you or anyone else like to agree with the FLAWED ideas? For sure, I will disagree with any flawed idea. I believe original Zabur, Tawrat, and Injil were the word of God and despite the fact Bible is heavily corrupted I respect it as there are portions which are yet untouched and uncorrupted.

In regard to their being a consensus about prayer times, you can make the argument that I lied. However, Harris only made a statement that "everyone agrees" rather than demonstrating that Hanbali, Hanafi Maliki, Shafi, Ismali, Jafari, Zaidi, Ibadis and any of the others are all in agreement The fact there are around 200 million Shias with their own Hadith and Ibadis, also with their set of Hadith, demonstrates perfectly that there is no consensus on a variety of issues.

There are more Ibadis than one might think. Many Berbers, in the Maghreb and Libya especially, and some east Africans are also Ibadis. So they are not just confined to Oman. Zanzibar in particular has a population of Ibadis.

If you were to ask the average Sunni or Shia about Jami Sahih, they likely wouldn't have a clue what you're talking about. But to Ibadis, who are an older branch than both Sunni and Shia, Jami Sahih is an authentic collection of Hadith. In fact, along with Tartib al-Musnad, it is the more important collection of Hadith for Ibadis.

It seems you have some knowledge about Hadith. Perhaps, you are aware about “Strong Hadith” and “Weak Hadith.” Hadith that has complete chain of narrators is called “Strong” and if some or many links are missing in the chain of narrators then such a Hadith is called “Weak.” “Weak Hadith” may or may not be true therefore; Muslims give least priority to the “Weak Hadith.” To check the authenticity of any Hadith, you first check the chain of narrators, the details of which you can easily find in any book of Hadith.

If you are interested to learn more about Science of Hadith then listen this lecture of Dr Johnathon Brown who is a scholar of Hadith Science.

https://vimeo.com/7216747

But Allah is an evil deity that is full of hatred. Allah gives people infinite punishment for a finite crime. Allah didn't care about all the Egyptians that were killed during the time of Moses. The slaves could have been free in an instant or not have been slaves in the first place. Why not just do a Quran 13:13 on the imperial palace and kill the Pharaoh. That's way less complicated then rivers of blood, locusts, frogs etc. And kill all of the first born children is guilt by association.

Today that would be equivalent to killing all of the babies born to Arab families in the Gulf simply because the royalty in the Gulf refuses to do away with the evil Kafala System which is simply a fancy tern for slavery. The slaves that build the great modern monuments of the Gulf are like the Pyramid builders of old, that Moses supposedly freed. Again, Quran 13:13 springs to mind, because the family of al-Saud has done more damage to the reputation of the Quran than the West ever could. This could all end in an instant, insha'Allah.

Likewise, Allah doesn't care about all of the starving people in Africa. Why should it be left up to the weak humans to do what Allah should be doing? If life is a test then surely everyone should be tested equally? Why do some starve whilst others live a life of luxury? Allah isn't being fair to the starving Africans here. Believe me, I hate the fact that a small number of people have all the riches but Allah can do a whole lot more to solve the problem than individuals can. This problem of starvation can be solve in an instant, insha'Allah.

Second, what was Allah's point in creating the universe of suffering? We humans are confined to this little planet when there is a infinite universe to explore, which seems terribly wasteful to me. Why did Allah feel the need to create anything at all? How long did Allah wait before deciding to create the universe.

I'm not sure how Noah could have reached Mount Judi if it was just a local flood. You would need something to contain the waters in order for them to reach that level. I'm of the impression that waves the size of mountains suggests a global flood, unless of course these mountains where the size of mole hills. Let's not make a mole hill out of a mountain.

Seeing as Harris certain about how our universe began, that means they have knowledge about something that has eluded cosmologists so far. Seeing as Harris access to such a wealth of knowledge maybe Harris could also tell us why gravity is weaker than the other fundamental forces or why the baryon asymmetry problem exists. After all, the Quran has answers to everything it seems. If we could generate electricity using anti-matter that would solve global warming so I would love it if Allah could enlighten us on the existenc of anti-matter.

“It is He Who giveth life and who taketh it, and to Him shall ye all be brought back.”
Yunus (10)
-Verse 56-

http://atheistforums.org/thread-30896.html

All this burning stuff shows that Allah is rubbish.

If I was making a load of great mates to hang out with me, and I got to make all the rules, would I design it so that they could get burnt? Or impaled? Or starve to death? Or get diseases? No! I'd leave all those boxes unticked. We'd just have a bloody good time and no one gets burnt.

This shows Allah is either incompetent, impotent or just likes seeing people in pain. Impotent is actually your best bet, if you think he deserves any praise. If he's doing his best with limited resources, he might be stopping things being worse than they are.

Life by far is not hee hee ha ha. Who will misbehave will get an electric chair. This is the law of nature. You respect your law for the fear of electric chair, fear the hellfire, which is obnoxious, be righteous person, and live your life in love and fear of God.

God catches evil doers with strong grip but if someone sincerely asks forgiveness and do not spend his/her life as arrogant being then no doubt God is the most Merciful. Do not spoil your eternal life for the sake of few infinitesimal moments of this worldly joy.

Try to read and understand Quran with a neutral mind, which is a warning to hypocrite evil doers and good tidings to the people who live with patience and perseverance, who never lose their hopes in God, and believe in the meeting with God.

There is nothing wrong if Quran threaten mischief-makers. Disbelief in God annihilate all distinctions and differences between moral and immoral and therefore disbelief in God is the main cause of all evil deeds.

There is nothing wrong if you help some poor person by following the commandments of God and try to spread love, peace, and harmony in your community. That is all what Quran is asking and in return offering an eternal reward.

Do not underestimate the powers of God Who is the creator of everything. For God it is not difficult to destroy anything/everything in no time. If He is not catching unbeliever culprits, killers, looters, etc. that is because He has promised a time for all people in which they have chance to ask forgiveness and live a modest life or continue to live as arrogant immoral beings. At the end, all Tyrants and all suppressed would return to God for their accountability.

“If any one does a righteous deed, it ensures to the benefit of his own soul; if he does evil, it works against (his own soul). In the end will ye (all) be brought back to your Lord.”
Al Jaatsiyah (45)
-Verse 15-

Cannot you see that:

1. Everyone (including you) failed to give a single legitimate evidence that can show Mr X has recorded Modern Scientific facts in 7th century Quran.
2. What everyone doing is speculating and making guestimates.
3. Because no one of you (atheists and agnostics) wants to believe in the existence of God, therefore some of you have even gone to a level of absurdity. Some of you are now advocating such irrational ideas as “Big Bang,” “Expanding Universe,” and “Currents in depth of deep oceans” are commonly observable phenomena therefore, no one has ever think of recording them.
4. I have shown you that verses and chapters in Quran are arranged in miraculous mathematical order. If you want, I can give you more examples.
5. On top of that, you have heard what eminent scientists (who are not Muslims) stated about Quran.
6. Furthermore, well-educated people in the west are coming to Islam in large numbers. Do not think they are 7th century donkeys?

All that is the power of Miraculous Quran.

Ponder over these facts and at least acknowledge the truth like Keith Moore and other scientists have done.

I have honestly never seen a thread mention the word 'skin' so much in my life...

Do not blame me for that.

My thoughts exactly. Allah can't do everything though, to be fair. Could Allah create a rock that was too heavy for Allah to lift? If the answer is yes, Allah can't do everything (because the rock cannot be lifted). If the answer is no, Allah can't do everything (because Allah cannot create the rock in the first place).

Tell me; is there any example more powerful than the Creation Ex-Nihilo?

Edit: Yes, Stimbo, the common response makes no sense. This is the main article from Iron Chariots Wiki.

I could be a better deity than Allah. I would not send good people to hell or allow anybody to suffer. I also would have killed Adolf Hitler before he could start World War Two. Allah claims to like free will yet didn't do anything to protect the free will of those in the concentration camps. By taking away Adolf Hitler's and Hirohito's free will, just two people, the free will of hundreds of millions of people could have been preserved. But wait! Adolf Hitler supported the Palestinians, as the various photographs from the time in the Wikipedia article clearly show, and was friendly the Brotherhood.

So could it be that Allah didn't care about what the Nazis were doing? Or maybe Allah liked what the Nazis were doing? Or maybe Allah doesn't exist?

http://atheistforums.org/thread-30896.html