Xin Yi Liu He Quan

[FreddyK]

Haha yes, If I include all the videos, you can choose which to click on. If I don't include them, then you don't get a choice to click on them.

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On pre-modern bodyguard services, and the violence of the past history, in China-
http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f...a&start=15

"Some time ago Jarek posted this CCTV documentary on how the rapid economic growth of Shanxi drove the development of Xing Yi. It answers a lot of questions you're asking.

Basically, before the invention of modern banking, if you have a lot of money, they're stored in the form of gold or silver, and when you move you have to transport all that bulky metal. So you're a big, slow, conspicuous target.

One of the most common types of customers for security agencies is retired government officials or officials at the end of a term transferring to another post: if you passed the imperial civil service exams, the government would post you wherever people are needed. So you may be thousands of miles from home town. In China there's this very common attitude of "when the leaf falls, it returns to the root". So when you retire you're supposed to stage this triumphant return to your home town. You left town a 'wearing plain cloth (cotton, linen)', you return 'wearing silk/satin'. Showing how successful you are, how you brought glory not only to your ancestors but the home town.

Of course, just like modern China's bureaucratic/crony capitalism, corruption is built in. Even a mid-level official would be extremely wealthy by the time he retired. This is where one of the most common attempt at robbery take place. The local people would think, you made all your ill-gotten gains off us here, that money should rightfully stay here. The capitol, more than anywhere else, is where these clients were.

Another major source are bankers. In the case of Shanxi, they developed the depositor's note system and interstate banking some two hundred years ago. You can take their note to one of their branch locations in major cities and get hard currency. Now there are large silos of gold where these banks are, hence the need for large number of high level martial artists. Since this is Shanxi, it meant Xingyi.

Of course many merchants still need to transport currency and other valuables. So they need protection as well.

There's actually a lot of interesting things written about the security agency/bandit relationship. Like modern virus-protection software companies, it's at the same time an antagonistic and symbiotic relationship. Lots of time it's not even real outlaws as local powers. For example, something like a dock, or waterway, it's ruled by some kind of gang. If you want passage, you have to go through them. There's a Chinese saying "even a strong dragon cannot bully the local snake". Imagine you're going to a land that is completely new to you, you don't speak their tongue, you don't know anyone, you don't know their culture, you don't know their geography. If they really wanted to, they can set a trap and get you fairly easily.

Again, it's a symbiotic relationship. If the local snakes have any smarts at all, they wouldn't just rob every traveler and make people avoid their area all together. That's where the semi-antagonistic element come in. You go to a new place, you need to pay respect to the local powers. If you're new, you have to fight them. If you beat them, they'll know having a full scale fight with your company is not a good business proposition. They'll respect you, and let you pass through their territory. Of course you have to shower them generously with gifts each time. If you're weak, and a nobody, then they'll just take everything from you. So yes, a security company doesn't operate by trying to beat everyone who's in their way every time. But they have to beat everyone at least one time. Diplomacy by itself is useless against uncivilized people if not backed by very real force. As the saying from the Warring States era goes "small [weak] country has no diplomacy" (they just do what strong countries tell them).

So where high level martial art is most needed is when you're opening a route for the very first time. After that comes diplomacy, but you still need to maintain a great fighting reputation, so people won't stop respecting you. The biggest companies, like the one operated by San Huang Paochui group, are the ones that had opened safe passages to many important areas of the country. Sort of like you're an airline and you dominate the New York - Los Angeles route. That's how your potential customer will know you and select you.

In Chinese the saying is "when in home[town] you rely on family, when traveling outside you rely on friends". Obviously in the later case the more friends the better. Life on the road is unpredictable, you may run into all kinds of unforeseen problems. In the old days everything is based on relationship, so it helps to have a large network of such powerful "friends".

Someone mentioned Yin Fu, that's a great example of someone combining great martial art skill and real world knowledge and intelligence. China during the invasion of Eight Nation Alliance is not unlike the French revolution, except here the rulers managed to escape and return unharmed. That's actually what make Yinfu instantly famous, more than beating any trained martial artist. In a situation where is a complete breakdown of civil society, guarding a large group of people who are that weak, that completely out-of-touch with real world, that was the most difficult task imaginable for someone in that protective role, just an incredible accomplishment (from the task's perspective, for China it would've been great if the those corrupt, evil rulers all died then and there).

The best example of successful agency is that of San Huang Pao Chui group. Song Mailun was originally a high ranking member of Shen Ji Ying (Capitol Garrison - Modern Firearm Division). The king in charge of Shen Ji Yin was so impressed by him that Song was promoted to Class Five government official (out of 9 classes). But seeing how fruitless it is to serve the corrupt and declining government, he went private and formed Hui You (meet friends) Security Company, the largest in the city. From his government work he became well connected politically with the political and economic elites, giving him unparalleled access to his potential client base. As a top level martial artist - a peer of, and good friends of Dong Haichuan, Li Zhijun, and Yang Luchan, he was well connected to the martial art scene, employing great many high level artists. This gave him access to all the talent needed to run his company. His work at the security company made him intimately familiar with every type of person, profession, and associations (religions, professional guilds, gangs, outlaws, etc) in society, from the highest to the lowest. All of this gave him great knowledge and wisdom. In today's parlance we'd call him someone who really knew how the system works, who can solve very difficult problems under seemingly impossible deadlines. So he was highly sought after by all kinds of people. Liu Dekuan was like that, though on a much smaller scale. There are not many martial artists in history that had this level of success in the conventional world, the only other person come immediately to mind is Yagyu Munenori.

Because they fight in the real world all the time and employed so many martial artist, the Pao Chui group left perhaps the largest curriculum of any martial art group. Empty hand routines alone comprise of 108 sets. On top of that every type of weapon imaginable... They had a great reputation because of the constant feedback from their daily work, any weak members would've been weeded out very naturally, quickly.

Until very recently in human history travel has always been arduous and dangerous. The first invention that made travel truly civilized, and these companies not so necessary - trains. That's one reason we really loath al Queda right - they made travel dangerous and stressful again, taking us back to pre-industrial times.

Before people disparage the role of martial arts in really the business of escort service and security, I think they need to be reminded that such escort services predate the arrival of the white hairy devils before the Chinese got any taste of gunpowder of Colt (which ironically they themselves had invented!). Perhaps its true that security service of the early ninteenth and twentieth centuries must have relied on the power of modern firearms and strategic actions to avoid actual conflicts, but what before that?

Moreover, the mentality of bandits and high way robbers is not like the wu de of the martial artist. If a famous martial artist arrives in a new place, the bandits, dons and other gangsters of that place would be the first one to probably welcome him (with their swords of course!). Because their own reputation depends on brandishing the reputation of a "reputed" martial artist.

Song Mailun and Yin Fu, whose examples have been quoted here for their excellent "people skills" (instead of martial skills), were also great martial artists. Otherwise it is not difficult at all for any other ambitious martial artist to oust them and take their position if it were simply dependent on strategic and business skills. Also, the art of San Huang Pao Chui was developed in the Emei mountains, and so it was most likely developed as a weapon against highway bandits and robbers who made monks and priests of the mountain easy targets to pick on!

"Certainly compromise, contacts, route planning, etc, are critical, but I think that in the final analysis, you absolutely had to be able to do the business. I dont' think the comparison made with modern bodyguard and security groups is particularly germane:Modern bodyguards in, say, the US or UK, don't tend to face road bandits, pirates, warring clans or warring armies. And as pointed out, there was not much of a banking system in China, so there was a lot more wealth travelling the roads and sea routes, which made armed robbery much more feasible than today. To put it another way: I would guess (and it IS a guess) that violent conflict was much more likely for a bodyguard or escort in Qing China than it is for a bodyguard or security van driver in US or UK."

"From my reading (I am not a specialist in this era or place - my MA thesis was traditional MA and political violence in SEAsia) late Qing China was a VERY violent and chaotic place, particularly along the coasts and rivers. You had:
The Opium Wars
The Taiping Rebellion (By some accounts, the deadliest war in human history, bar WWII)
Large-scale piracy along much of the South China coast
Gangsterism in treaty ports like Shanghai (I think it was Fairbairn who considered early 20th century Shanghai the most violent city on earth - and went form being a Shanghai cop to teaching commandos and SOE)
Virtual civil war between certain clans and ethnic groups in Southern China (this propelled hundreds of thousands of Southern Chinese to seek their fortunes in the more settled climes of SEAsia)
And the Boxer Rebellion at the turn of the century
Finally, you had collatal spin-off - poverty, destruction, degredation, desperation, availability of weaponry, availability of armed/trained bands - from all the above.

Given all this (and I am sure I have missed much on this list) I would imagine late Qing-era China was chaotic and violent, with very weak state and state law enforcement mechanisms in many (if not all) parts of the empire.

I must say that as a martial artist and a historian, I find this subject fascinating."

Sometimes for modern people, to understand how heroic masters of the past were may be hard. They often lived in extremely violent climates and dealt with extremely violent people

And on gangs and life in Shanghai-

I don't know if Fairbairn said Shanghai was the most dangerous but based on the book Policing Shanghai and another i read on the Green Gang I would tend to agree.

I understand that during the 20's when Fairbairn was the head of the Shanghai Municipal Police department at that time Shanghai was statistically the murder capital of the world. At that time the Chicago Police department had an exchange program with Shanghai. Keep in mind Chicago in the 20's was the height of organized crime, boot legging and Al Capone. However, records indicate that Chicago's finest were afraid to go to train in Shanghai. They considered it too dangerous!

The fact that Chicago cops of the 20s were afraid of Shanghai certainly says something. Now, by that time, the firepower era was firmly established and the Qing was a decade dead, but my guess would be that the city and its environs were just as dangerous 20, 30, 40 years earlier. IIRC, Frederick "The Devil Soldier" Townsend Ward started the operations of the "Ever Victorious Army" (later taken over by Charles "China" Gordon - later immortailized as "Gordon of Khartoum") from the city.

I haven't been to Shanhai since the mid-1990s, but I think the city should really leverage this colorful past - would make a fascinating subject for a museum.

Gangs that ran Shanghai before 1949 were just savage. It wasn't nearly this violent before. But in times of extreme violence and chaos, people feels to survive they need 'hard men' to grab and maintain power. Typical initiation involves the recruit going to see the gangsters, upon seeing them, without a word drop to the ground in fetal position, protecting the head and vital organs, and let everyone kick him for an hour. If he makes any sound he failed.

Some things you probably won't see with Chicago gangs:

A typical single combat challenge is where gangsters take turns sticking knives in their own bodies, to see who can do more. You start on the thighs and then move upward. Of course there are lots of important details to this. And of course when you do this you need to show no hesitation, no acknowledgment of pain, or slightest concern for damage, slamming the blade in as if it was an enemy's body.
One time a gangster went to Shanghai and his presence was not acknowledged by a prominent local gangster. So the visitor showed up at the local gangster's doorstep with two giant hay cutters used on farms. He challenged the local gangster to lie down in the hay cutter at the same time, and let both blades drop, that 'whoever tried to escape, or showed any fear of death is not a real man'. Needless to say the local gangster immediately invited him in and paid proper respects.
In general the police would leave the gang alone unless there's fatality. So sometimes, before a fight a gang would designate one member who would die in the upcoming fight, so that the resulting police action would break apart/disrupt (or gain some other important strategic advantage over) the rival gang. This sounds insane to us now. But this practice is common enough that it's well known amongst the civilian population.

Even if you're an accomplished martial artist, you can't take these guys on lightly. To start with it's extremely hard to fight people whose overriding priority is not self-defense but destruction of enemy.

Some info that I know of concerning gangs in Shanghai.

It all started probably with Small Daggers (Swords) Society 小刀会 which supported Taiping's and took over the Chinese part of Shanghai in 1850's. It was a political and military organization that fought against the Qing occupation.

The business of loading and unloading ships was in the hands of certain less or more organized groups. In Hankou my teacher's teacher was the head of such a group. He had to fight his way to reach this position, and after group fighting he had to face the leader of the opposing group. They had a duel - had to take out a coin from the bottom of a wok filled with boiling oil. The other guy stepped back, while Mai Jinkui (of Henan XYLHQ) took out the coin. He burned his forearm and the skin remained black for many years aftewards. This is what Wiyizidi wrote about - showing no hesitation, no reaction to pain, complete committment.

The poor Huis from the Chinese interior took over ship un/loading business in Shanghai in the 30s and 40s, and many old generation masters of XYLHQ, Cha Quan and Qishi were involved in real fights for jobs in the port. We can read about them in the biographies of Li Zunsi and Yu Hualong. The former was also involved in fights against the Hacket Gang 斧头帮, and in early 50s, when the communists arrived, was jailed for one year for street fighting. Those people saw blood and death and it can still be seen in the way they teach applications and fighting techniques. I think Ken Fish wrote something along these lines when describing the soldiers who took part in real military actions - they posses abilities resulting from crossing psychological lines ordinary person would never cross. I think many MA practitioners hardly realize that fact, and the idea of the right mindset is very much misunderstood.

We have to remember that since 1842 and the 1st Opium War and Nanjing Treaty most of Shanghai was in the hands of foreign powers. They had different laws in their settlements. As an example - opium distribution illegal in international settlement, was legal in the French concession, and it was in Du Yuesheng's hands. Du was working for the police first and then became the head of Qing Bang 青帮 (Green Gang), the most powerful gang in Shanghai, which controlled opium trade and paid taxes to the French. It was also Du whose troops helped to massacre the workers and communists in 1927, working closely with KMT. Famous Heyi Tongbei master Ren Heshan 任鹤山 (who passed his system to the teacher of Wu Maogui and Qian Zhaohong), was an important figure in Green Gang.

In the 30s and 40s the gangs - along with certain patriotic groups - conducted also many undercover operations against Japanese and those who cooperated with them, killing many of them.

Very interesting part of the history of Shanghai which still awaits to be brought to the wider attention.

Here is video of a very powerful weapon, Da Dao the Chinese machete. This was used against the Japanese in close quarters combat, and in WW2-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blVfwN9yXOQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xl4_bCPOqsQ

Old Military Dao form-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyeEq9W6Jpc

Info
http://www.lionbooks.com.tw/Detail.aspx?ProductID=M-126