The Immorality of God - Slavery in the Old Testament

[Thumpalumpacus]

First, I want you to know that I will give your objection some thought. That might take days or weeks. But I have this simmering on my back burner now, so to speak.

I will take the occasion to pull off the lid and give it the occasional stir, so that you don't forget that the point has been left unanswered. In the meantime, and until you've given this such heavy consideration, I'd recommend leaving aside your arguments from free will.

Second, my quick response would be this:  If you say to your child, "If you clean your room, I will take you see a movie. If you don't clean your room, you will be grounded while the rest of the family goes without you." does this really limit the child's freedom to choose? Some kids might say, "Fine. I'll stay home." which sort of calls your bluff because what YOU wanted was for her to clean her room. But sure, the child might clean her room simply to avoid being grounded.

Now, what if you say to that child, "Brush your teeth, or you will get cavities or gum disease"? Is the child going to brush but only "under duress"? I mean, life is chock full of "if...then" scenarios like this, and many of them are negative. "If you do X, then Y will happen to you."

God is basically doing the same thing, though the stakes a much higher. He offers eternal life and happiness if you follow His plan, but He warns of the consequences should you choose to follow your own.

If I point a gun to your head and tell you to give me your wallet, do you have freedom of action? If you're going to argue by analogy, you should at least try to make them apt. There are obviously no life-and-death issues involved in cleaning one's room. So answer my question: If I point a gun at your head and demand your wallet, should I later be able to invokoe as defense the fact that you willingly gave me your wallet? I mean, you didn't have to give me your wallet. You could have said no.

Please, if you're going to argue by analogy, give us one where the stakes are close to the same. The gravity of the duress is directly proportional to the danger of the consequences, and attempting to compare this to a child cleaning his room is, in the most charitable interpretation, laughably short-sighted.

That doesn't follow, does it? Everyone suffers in various ways and to varying degrees. Is God responsible for all of that? Two things strike me. First, suffering bears fruit in the form of the development of our character. Frankly, it would be better to die as a noble slave than to live as a foppish prince. Removing all evil from the world would result in the loss of opportunities to learn courage, patience, forgiveness, and so on.

And a Perfect Teacher who is powerful enough to create an entire universe is incapable of passing along such lessons any other way?

This is simply one more power you've stripped from your god. I like where this is going -- pretty soon, if I keep asking questions, your god is going to have less power than the Vice-President.

Second, God has the end in mind...not the beginning.

Ah, so you know the mind of God. I see.

This life may be all we can see, but we can't even see that very well. What will happen to you tomorrow? Or next year? Your knowledge of this life is limited to the past and the present. But God see that as well as the future, and it is the eternal future that is most important.

*yawn*

When you have to resort to preaching to make your point, you've lost the argument.