RE: Open letter to Christians
February 3, 2016 at 3:56 pm
(This post was last modified: February 3, 2016 at 3:57 pm by orangebox21.)
(February 2, 2016 at 2:36 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote: Oh right, but I have to define "contradiction" for ol' Slick Willy here. OK let's see. A contradiction is a violation of the law of non-contradiction but also may loosely be applied to a violation of any other logical law.The law of non-contradiction states that something cannot be both true and not true at the same time and in the same context. Therefore to prove the Bible has contradictions, one needs to provide two scriptures, one claiming X is true, and another claiming X is not true at the same time and in the same context.
(February 2, 2016 at 2:36 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote: I said I am assuming in the favor of Christianity that the errors are not contradictions in the original manuscripts but rather are transcriber errors. Would you prefer we change this working assumption?You've claimed that the errors are not contradictions but rather transcriber errors. So you differentiate that a transcriber error is not a contradiction. You then go on to claim that because there are transcriber errors (not contradictions) the Bible has contradictions.
(February 1, 2016 at 4:03 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: Then reconcile your quote in post #1 when your opening statement is:Reconciliation of these two is not very hard. The Bible contradicts itself because there are copyist errors which give contradictory accounts. Duh? What we know is that EITHER these contradictions were in the original or else they propagated later... but they are still contradictions. The Bible contradicts itself and that is a fact.
"It is factual that the Bible contradicts itself."
(February 2, 2016 at 2:36 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote: Firstly, you seem to be perfectly fine with copyist errors. You show something is copyist error and then act as though you're claiming victory. Well, this means that God allows the Bible to be corrupted. Note that we humans have corrupted it accidentally while trying our hardest to preserve it. Then there's Satan... the Bible goes out of its way to commend him for being crafty and clever. He is malicious towards God. Yet he is unable to match our blunders? Explain this, please.A copyist error does not violate the law of non-contradiction. By definition, a copy of something that is different from the original is a different something. Two different things compared cannot violate the law of non-contradiction. Therefore a copyist error is not a contradiction.
(February 2, 2016 at 2:36 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote:Generations being defined genealogically.(February 1, 2016 at 4:03 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: The foundational objection I have to the "the Bible is full of contradictions" argument is the [at least appearance of] ignorance of the narrative of argumentation that has been going on for generations.Are you sure about that? 2000 years, less the time before the printing press, less the time before printed and non-Latin Bibles were common, less the time before you could openly question the Bible without being tortured and executed. Exactly how many generations?
(February 2, 2016 at 2:36 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote: And let's take a look at your answer that has been brewed over hours of work. I'm going to obliterate it in a couple seconds.Are you then conceding your argument that the list is in the order of birth?
Quote:Johanan the firstborn, the second Jehoiakim, the third Zedekiah, the fourth Shallum. I Chronicles 3:15. After the firstborn, he list them in terms of importance as rulers in Israel.OK... so please explain why the least important on the list was the first to succeed Joisah on the throne. Contradiction stands.
(February 2, 2016 at 2:36 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote:Then why claim we need to use our intellect to determine the truth value of each claim in the Bible when you've admitted we can't?(February 1, 2016 at 4:03 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: That's a misrepresentation of what I said. I did not say evidence is not required for the claim that a being with infinite knowledge exists. I asked you, in response to what you wrote, if it was possible to use our intellect to determine the truth value of each claim in the Bible. Namely, how would you use your intellect to determine the truth value of the statement that 'God is all knowing?'"We can't know that. Hence atheism.
(February 2, 2016 at 2:36 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote:Your initial claim is that the Bible was written by racist, sexist, conquesting, genocidal, slave-driving rapists. You did not write that some of the Bible was written by racist, sexist, conquesting, genocidal, slave-driving rapists therefore the entire Bible is written by by racist, sexist, conquesting, genocidal, slave-driving rapists because the authors of the Bible are lumped together, namely they stand or fall together. If you want to revise or amend your argument, no problem. But to provide justifications after the fact as if you had claimed them initially is at best logically inconsistent.(February 1, 2016 at 4:03 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: Initially you wrote: "the Bible and the Declaration of Independence - were written by racist, sexist, conquesting, genocidal, slave-driving rapists," and your claiming the meaning of that statement is: "the parts of the Bible that Joshua wrote and the Declaration of Independence- were written by racist, sexist, conquesting, genocidal, slave-driving rapists."Yeah. The authors of the Bible are lumped together. They stand or fall together.
(February 2, 2016 at 2:36 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote:While it is true you're committing the genetic fallacy, it is also true that your reasoning for rejecting this moral system is your bare assertion that the Bible is written by racist, sexist, conquesting, genocidal, slave-driving rapists. So you're poisoning the well, with a bare assertion.(February 1, 2016 at 4:03 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: Doubling down on the fallacy then?I'm not even committing the genetic fallacy. I'm not saying the Bible is false because it was written by racist, sexist, conquesting, genocidal, slave-driving rapists. I'm saying we should at least raise an eyebrow when such people draft a system of morality.
You're also committing the fallacy of composition. You've claimed that because the Bible was written by racist, sexist, conquesting, genocidal, slave-driving rapists we shouldn't trust their system of morality (genetic fallacy). Therefore the entirety of the Bible (including subjects not involving a system of morality) is false.
(February 2, 2016 at 2:36 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote:That burden of proof lies with you.(February 1, 2016 at 4:03 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: Yes, especially because no scribe ate a donut. Seriously though, you made a positive knowledge claim. I'm asking you to defend the claim with evidence. Certainly I find it reasonable to assume that scribes would pray for wisdom and guidance before embarking on such a meaningful task. At the same time, when Jesus walked the earth who was he hard on? Who killed him? Wasn't it at least in part the teachers of the law and the scribes? Didn't he call them snakes and sons of snakes? The point here is that you've made a knowledge claim for something you admit to have no evidence of, and clearly the issue isn't as straight forward as you claim it to be. [/color]"OK... show me where the actual knowledge claim is.
(February 2, 2016 at 2:36 pm)Nihilist Virus Wrote:It is a line of argumentation that began with your assertion in post#1(February 1, 2016 at 4:03 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: Yet God rules over Satan. Does everyone act in accordance with God's prescriptive will? Would everyone act in accordance with Satan's prescriptive will?What does this have to do with Satan altering the Bible?
Quote:If, on the other hand, God allows anything to happen to the Bible, and does not interfere, then you can be assured that the Bible says exactly what Satan wants it to say.
If you're having trouble following multiple lines of argumentation then perhaps just pick one, and let's discuss it. That would be my preference anyway.
If it could be proven beyond doubt that God exists...
and that He is the one spoken of in the Bible...
would you repent of your sins and place your faith in Jesus Christ?