IATIA,
No. I entirely understand your "Butterfly Effect." You have been espousing specific determinism, and in that concept whether the cause(s) are nearby or far away is irrelevant, and you have done nothing to show relevance.
And that is your problem. You are so entwined with the future and the past that you entirely ignore the present. You seem to forget that if the future exists, and if the past exists, then it is necessary that at one time the present existed. As I pointed out previously, even if you exist in the past, at one point what you are doing was done in the present, and it was at that time that your free will expressed itself. You are the exact evidence that you were operating in accordance with your own free will in those moments.
This means that if everything already exists, then we absolutely made all of our choices in accordance with our own free will in a present moment that once existed, and we are the proof of it, ergo your argument fails, and free will is not precluded.
Laplace's Demon is a statement of determinism. I have already addressed determinism. I agree with you that if determinism is correct then we are robots, but in that case God's foreknowledge is irrelevant.
What makes this so tough is that you cannot see the fallacies in your own logic.
You seem to believe that I am trying to "allow for" the existence of God. Not at all. I am pointing out the flaws in your logic. Posit God. Posit foreknowledge. Would foreknowledge contradict free will? No. Whether God does or does not exist is irrelevant. It is a logic puzzle, and you have failed to solve it.
My life would not be enlightened by embracing your faulty logic. Quite the opposite.
Regards,
Shadow_Man
Shadow_Man Wrote:Please explain what touching the universe has to do with free will.
IATIA Wrote:Butterfly effect. Why would you pick the left or the right glass over the other? Because a neuron fired. It could have been the neuron that gave you the desire to choose the left or a different neuron that gave you the desire to choose the right. Why did any neuron fire? Subatomic reactions. These subatomic reactions are effected by other forces. Someone on the other side of the world made a choice that effected gravity, photons, air, etc.. These effects proliferated throughout the universe and different things will happen under different conditions. If you roll some dice and pick them up, you cannot replicate the same conditions. Gravity, air, photons, temperature, humidity, grip, position, stance, blood pressure, breathing, etc. have all been changed and have induced change.
Shadow_Man Wrote:I believe that your statement is incorrect, but more importantly I do not see the relevance.
IATIA Wrote:Which is your whole problem.
No. I entirely understand your "Butterfly Effect." You have been espousing specific determinism, and in that concept whether the cause(s) are nearby or far away is irrelevant, and you have done nothing to show relevance.
IATIA Wrote:One last time on the future thing. If god can see the future, then the future must exist. This means everything already exists and we never made any choices, ergo, no free will.
And that is your problem. You are so entwined with the future and the past that you entirely ignore the present. You seem to forget that if the future exists, and if the past exists, then it is necessary that at one time the present existed. As I pointed out previously, even if you exist in the past, at one point what you are doing was done in the present, and it was at that time that your free will expressed itself. You are the exact evidence that you were operating in accordance with your own free will in those moments.
This means that if everything already exists, then we absolutely made all of our choices in accordance with our own free will in a present moment that once existed, and we are the proof of it, ergo your argument fails, and free will is not precluded.
IATIA Wrote:Either god can see into the future because it already exists (and I guess created by it) or god cannot see into the future. An alternative is Laplace's Demon which does not allow for free will either.
Laplace's Demon is a statement of determinism. I have already addressed determinism. I agree with you that if determinism is correct then we are robots, but in that case God's foreknowledge is irrelevant.
IATIA Wrote:What makes this so tough is that there is no god and the incongruities in trying to allow for one present an abundance of significant contradictions.
What makes this so tough is that you cannot see the fallacies in your own logic.
You seem to believe that I am trying to "allow for" the existence of God. Not at all. I am pointing out the flaws in your logic. Posit God. Posit foreknowledge. Would foreknowledge contradict free will? No. Whether God does or does not exist is irrelevant. It is a logic puzzle, and you have failed to solve it.
IATIA Wrote:Just make your life simple and step into the light.
My life would not be enlightened by embracing your faulty logic. Quite the opposite.
Regards,
Shadow_Man
