(January 30, 2017 at 3:57 am)pocaracas Wrote:(January 29, 2017 at 11:48 pm)Gestas Wrote: A possible world is a maximum description of reality that is logically coherent (at the very least). And all I'm saying is I don't see any logical inconsistency with a possible world where the natural world does not exist. And if you're a person who thinks time is part of the natural world, then this possible world would also be timeless. If you think such a possible world could produce a natural world then I'm all ears. I don't see how it could.
It's not our problem that you can't see it.
I can't fathom it either...
Specially since you're using the wrong words (as if there are right words for it)
"Produce" denotes a measure of time, so you're assuming time in timelessness... Which can't work.
Also, I cannot even begin to think about what a timeless state of affairs could be... What its properties could be.
Quote:There would be no matter, energy, or time. That's what I mean by "timeless state of affairs with zero potentiality".
Like I said above, I wouldn't know.
According to our physics, energy, matter and time are required for anything to happen...
But who said our physics and intuition are required to operate out of our universe (whatever out may mean here)?
Quote:And if it's impossible for such a possible world to produce a natural world, then that means we can conclude that the natural world that exists in the actual world has always existed.
This is the main part that illustrates how you don't understand the problem.
"Always" implies time.
If time has an objective point of origin, "always" can only stretch backwards up to that point.
So yes, the natural world has always existed, even with a past finite existence.
Quote:So, if you're an atheist, it'd be rational for you to believe that the natural world is eternal.
No, a past infinite is not required, though it does help with our own thought process.
An extra-universal multi-dimensional time (whatever that is out of a mathematical context) could solve certain difficulties, while also rendering our concept of "Always" useless beyond the our-time origin event.
A new person who doesn't know what they're talking about enters the fray...