RE: God is so quiet
February 11, 2018 at 9:15 am
(This post was last modified: February 11, 2018 at 9:20 am by SteveII.)
(February 11, 2018 at 8:33 am)Grandizer Wrote:(February 11, 2018 at 8:10 am)Tizheruk Wrote: Also jumping the shark on the idea one can imagine the universe not existing . And talking about a negation is not the same as being able to conceptualize it the universe not existing .
There is literally nothing that makes any god necessary. I can easily think of a universe lacking any god that has every been described to me . In decades have never been able to do the same with all of existence.
Yes, and that is the flaw in Steve's wording earlier. If one can conceive of God not existing in a possible world, then that makes God not necessary.
But of course, in order for arguments like the argument from contingency and the modal ontological argument to work, God has to be deemed a necessary being in the eyes of theists defending those arguments. So perhaps Steve shouldn't have said anything about conceiving, and just stuck to God by definition is necessary, lol.
You are confused because you still don't have the terminology down. I said that "if God exists, he exists necessarily". That means he is not contingent. Think about it--if God exists in the actual world, there are no set of contingent facts you can tinker with in a possible world (which are the rules to "possible world" semantics) where God does not exist because you have already established that his existence does not rely on any contingent facts.
Quote:And, yeah, theists pretty much force a difference between God and the universe in terms of modality when there is none, because they have to. Otherwise, how else would they explain the existence of the universe by appealing to the one God that they adhere to? If the universe can exist independent of God, then there's no point to God, and they can't have that.
You have failed to explain why the universe is not contingent (like Rickle's said it was). 'Contingent' means caused by something else.
I can save you a lot of time and tell you your only option is to say that the universe (or multiverse) is a brute fact (a fact that has no explanation). You could go on for a dozen more pages throwing all kinds of misconceptions at the wall, but at the end of the day, professional atheist philosophers say the universe is a brute fact and that will be where you will eventually arrive. My point on this matter will always be that my worldview has an explanation--which I think is superior to no explanation--which is what you have.
(February 11, 2018 at 8:47 am)Grandizer Wrote: Oh, I just remembered what the thread OP is about. So while Steve continues to argue for, and defend, his God ... where is God again? Sleeping, or can't be fucked to deal with us puny beings?
I answered that. You gave an answer that was clear you were not interested in a discussion. We have moved on.
https://atheistforums.org/post-1698863.html#pid1698863
