RE: God is so quiet
February 12, 2018 at 6:52 am
(This post was last modified: February 12, 2018 at 6:59 am by GrandizerII.)
(February 11, 2018 at 10:42 pm)SteveII Wrote:(February 11, 2018 at 11:04 am)Grandizer Wrote: About the abstract, not really sure how the abstract can exist independently of the concrete. Existence is abstract, but what does this even mean without something existing concretely to allow for its expression? We may as well speak of non-existence instead of purely abstract existence because they seem to imply the same thing. What does "round" mean without the round objects it describes? What does "space-time" mean without the entity that possesses space-time coordinates? What do "numbers" mean without minds counting things? What does "beauty" mean without someone to perceive beauty?
You can definitely have a possible world where there is nothing concrete. One such possible world is where only God exists--or beings like him.
Your examples of abstract objects are all over the place. "Round" and "beauty" are contingent (and are therefore not necessary) properties. "Space-time" is not an abstract object at all. Only "numbers" are examples of necessary abstract objects.
Either God is a concrete being or he is abstract. I don't think you want to go with the latter option. Just because God is spirit (in your view) doesn't mean he is not concrete. And I don't agree that your God is even possible. After all, we're dealing with a being who supposedly created things from "nothingness" (no material cause) and can timelessly act (can act without time, even though acts imply time) and that makes me have doubts about even its possibility. Since they imply logical contradictions (which I got into in other threads), then God as the Creator is not logical.
I'm not sure I agree with you that space-time is not abstract, but I'll set that aside either way and focus on the important point being made here.
Now, numbers. I think even those which we deem necessary abstract objects require concrete entities to refer to. Without such references, it is meaningless to talk about such abstract objects existing. What do numbers mean without the existence of something that they can refer to? How does "two" exist in the absence of concrete entities that have the potential to add up to "two entities"? Again, we may as well talk about true "nothingness".
(February 11, 2018 at 11:00 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: And maybe reality doesn’t need a cause. Maybe reality is necessarily real by definition. What’s the logical alternative? Non-reality?
Yes, and if theists like Steve want to keep God and "our" reality separate from each other, then this means God coexisted with "non-reality" before creating reality out of "it"? So many wrongs with the notion of a Creator God, and this is just the tip of the iceberg.
