RE: Why are you an Atheist?
December 18, 2019 at 10:30 pm
(This post was last modified: December 18, 2019 at 11:01 pm by maxolla.)
(December 18, 2019 at 7:53 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:(December 18, 2019 at 7:16 pm)maxolla Wrote: In short. We as human beings see the world in different ways. We interpret what we perceive in varied ways and even our language is imperfect in totally accurate communication. I would say that Biblical text just as any writing can be interpreted along many different lines of thought. If we both read the same novel you may come up with a very different interpretation of the text than I would based on your experience and the fact that all human being are unique from one another.
I except that I am wrong and have misunderstandings. That’s why I am interested in learning from other peoples perspectives when they will allow understanding. I would not say that I am typical in theist circles. It's prefer to understand than be understood. This is why I don’t particularly care whether or not my conclusions are perceived as right I would prefer to be right.
Lastly, Ipse dixit doesn’t cut it. Just because most of the Christian world believes in hell, I have yet to have someone support is properly with scriptural proof.
You would say the same to me regarding the existence of God. However, I’m not trying to prove his existence to you. I’m here to know more about your why.
The part I bolded is what is actually important to me in these types of discussions, though.
One of my main motivations in life, is to have as many true beliefs as possible, and eliminate as many false beliefs as possible. I want my internal model of the world to map as closely as possible to the actual world.
The primary reasons why I have these discussions, is for people that have different beliefs than I have, to tell me what they are, and most importantly, tell me WHY they believe them. The why is actually the important part.
If theists god beliefs are supported with: demonstrable and falsifiable evidence, and valid and sound logic, then I want to know about it. Without meeting the above criteria, what should be my epistemological warrant to believe theist's claims are true?
I am open to be convinced that a god exists, as long as theists are able to meet their burden of proof. Fallacious arguments, like: teleological, Kalam cosmological, ontological, and transcendental arguments, will not cut it. Appeals to old texts, personal feelings of god encounters, 'miracle' healings, etc, etc, are even worse evidence.
So, I think there is some agreement on why we seek to communicate with other people regarding their beliefs. I would say that more questions are necessary.
What would convince you with out a shadow of a doubt that God does exist? What specifically would be necessary for that belief to become absolutely truth for you?
(December 18, 2019 at 10:00 pm)Succubus Wrote:(December 18, 2019 at 7:16 pm)maxolla Wrote: Just because most of the Christian world believes in hell, I have yet to have someone support is properly with scriptural proof.
Mark 9:47–48. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.
The word for hell in Mark 9:47-48 is “Gehenna” which is a place specifically translated as “valley of Hinnom” (see below).
Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, once celebrated for the horrid worship of Moloch, and afterwards polluted with every species of filth, as well as the carcasses of animals, and dead bodies of malefactors; to consume which, in order to avert the pestilence which such a mass of corruption would occasion, constant fires were kept burning.
Gehenna is used throughout the new testament and has been wrongly, I believe translated as hell. I contend that the doctrine of hell is ancient pagan superstition superimposed on Christian teaching of death.
Revelation 14:11. And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.
Not sure of the relevance of this text in Revelation other than the reference to the destruction of the wicked.
Matthew 25:46. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.
"Everlasting" meaning final and irreversible.
Matthew 24:41. Human beings who reject Christ will join Satan and his fallen angels in this infernal place of suffering.
This is an incorrect quote. Matt: 24:41 says "Two women will be grinding ca at the mill; one will be taken and one left"
That took all of two minutes to find, and there's more, lots more.
I have never claimed that eschatology precludes the destruction of the wicked at the end of the age. I have said that I do not believe scripture teaches of a place called hell where the wicked are sent immediately at death to be tortured by burning for eternity.
I actually agree with your assessment as an atheist. When you finally die you will quite possibly be dead for all eternity. You will not be in some eternal flame languishing for all eternity.