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Why am I me?
#87
RE: Why am I me?
(October 30, 2011 at 6:08 am)lucent Wrote: No, we don't agree. I didn't suggest a background system, I suggested the system itself is God.

Read my post again.

(October 30, 2011 at 6:08 am)lucent Wrote: Non sequiter. First, we only *appear* to experience the world subjectively, so this is not a fact. What you're suggesting is metaphysics, for which there is no evidence. Can you even prove that there are other minds? No. Second even I granted you this premise the conclusion does not follow. This idea of "separable" isn't even coherent.

If we aren't going to assume equality between POVs, then we have no discussion and you are assuming you are correct.

Separate systems are perfectly coherent: there are multiple systems whose values appear to change in a non-deterministic fashion upon observation (interaction). This is the only physical explanation that explains entanglement, which is observed in numerous experiments examining the decays of state. How the interaction takes place is the point of explanation. Hence separate systems are, in as much as one can say about anything, fact.

I am pointing out that one interpretation of QM suggests that all systems are equal, and there is no background. This means that from the POV of one system, anything it is not entangled/interacting with at any given moment does not exist. Therefore, the entirety of existence from the POV of that system is the value it currently has. This interpretation suggests this is what existence is: a specific value of a specific isolated system. As the systems are isolated from one another, they all exist in their own frame of reference (POV) and with no background frame within which they exist or interact, they remain isolated and exist separate from one another. There are other interpretations of QM, none of them happen to address this problem.

This explains subjectivity if we assume subjectivity exists. If we don't, then since I exist, you don't and neither does God.

(October 30, 2011 at 6:08 am)lucent Wrote: In what sense are human beings separable from their environment, or from other humans? Do humans just pop into existence as is? No, they are created by other human beings.

Humans are a large collection of interacting molecular quantum systems that continually become entangled and become decoupled. The entanglement occurs on a molecular level and the interaction between these systems does not occur simultaneously in time. Hence, we as physical bodies aren't single quantum systems. Parts entangle, then decouple, then entangle with a different parameters, etc. The photon from the sun interacts with our eye. This creates a chemical change which induces charge transfer. This charge transfer continues, eventually reaching separate parts of the brain in a chain of interactions. These interactions occur in time, meaning that once the signal has left the eye, a new photon hits the eyes, decoupling it from the neighboring molecule. The process starts over and is phenomenologically identical to other environmental interacts such as skin and surfaces, etc.

(October 30, 2011 at 6:08 am)lucent Wrote: How do you separate a fetus from a pregnant mother?

Abortion.

(October 30, 2011 at 6:08 am)lucent Wrote: This explains absolutely zero. Can you explain why we should even assume that?

Because if we don't, we are assuming one of us is right and everyone else is wrong.

(October 30, 2011 at 6:08 am)lucent Wrote: What is the nature of each separate existence?

Explain what you mean by "nature of".

(October 30, 2011 at 6:08 am)lucent Wrote: God is omni (all), both objective and subjective. Whatever God creates is not God (ie, finite)

You are now defining God as something illogical. You cannot have objective existence and subjective existence simultaneously. This is the problem of the discussion.

Saying, "well, it's God." does not address anything. You have simply called the problem by another name.

A: "My computer is turned on, but the power chord is unplugged."
B: "That's a patimony skuffle rod."
A: "So? Why is it turned on?"
B: "That's a patimony skuffle rod."
Reply



Messages In This Thread
Why am I me? - by R-e-n-n-a-t - October 12, 2010 at 5:58 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Anomalocaris - October 12, 2010 at 6:15 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Ace Otana - October 12, 2010 at 6:22 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Anomalocaris - October 12, 2010 at 7:14 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by R-e-n-n-a-t - October 13, 2010 at 8:03 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by TheDarkestOfAngels - October 13, 2010 at 8:34 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Loki_999 - October 14, 2010 at 1:41 am
RE: Why am I me? - by marksesl - October 15, 2012 at 3:40 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Existentialist - October 12, 2010 at 7:32 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by ib.me.ub - October 13, 2010 at 3:04 am
RE: Why am I me? - by TheDarkestOfAngels - October 13, 2010 at 4:57 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Loki_999 - October 13, 2010 at 5:35 am
RE: Why am I me? - by The Omnissiunt One - October 13, 2010 at 7:26 am
RE: Why am I me? - by ib.me.ub - October 14, 2010 at 6:23 am
RE: Why am I me? - by ChromodynamicGirl - October 16, 2010 at 6:24 am
RE: Why am I me? - by solja247 - October 21, 2010 at 6:14 am
RE: Why am I me? - by R-e-n-n-a-t - October 27, 2010 at 3:27 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by jason56 - October 27, 2010 at 7:38 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Violet - October 27, 2010 at 7:41 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by R-e-n-n-a-t - October 28, 2010 at 3:05 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Violet - October 29, 2010 at 3:29 am
RE: Why am I me? - by deanalouise - December 15, 2016 at 2:45 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Edwardo Piet - October 29, 2010 at 4:58 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Violet - October 29, 2010 at 5:01 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Edwardo Piet - October 29, 2010 at 5:06 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Violet - October 29, 2010 at 5:15 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Edwardo Piet - October 29, 2010 at 5:34 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Violet - October 29, 2010 at 5:54 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Edwardo Piet - October 29, 2010 at 7:47 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Violet - October 30, 2010 at 3:45 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Edwardo Piet - October 31, 2010 at 7:42 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Yahadreas - October 29, 2010 at 10:31 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Edwardo Piet - October 29, 2010 at 11:06 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Yahadreas - October 30, 2010 at 6:41 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Violet - October 30, 2010 at 7:38 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Yahadreas - October 30, 2010 at 1:57 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by The Omnissiunt One - October 30, 2010 at 2:59 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Violet - October 30, 2010 at 6:47 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Yahadreas - October 31, 2010 at 6:58 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Rhizomorph13 - November 3, 2010 at 12:44 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Dooga33 - September 1, 2011 at 9:27 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by R-e-n-n-a-t - September 3, 2011 at 4:01 am
RE: Why am I me? - by KichigaiNeko - September 3, 2011 at 7:06 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Dooga33 - September 3, 2011 at 11:01 am
RE: Why am I me? - by The Grand Nudger - September 3, 2011 at 11:05 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Dooga33 - September 3, 2011 at 11:26 am
RE: Why am I me? - by R-e-n-n-a-t - September 3, 2011 at 11:24 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Rhizomorph13 - September 4, 2011 at 10:34 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Dooga33 - September 4, 2011 at 10:40 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Rohobian - September 10, 2011 at 12:06 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by The Magic Pudding - September 10, 2011 at 1:59 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by R-e-n-n-a-t - September 15, 2011 at 6:28 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by lucent - September 16, 2011 at 10:08 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by The Magic Pudding - September 17, 2011 at 11:06 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by IATIA - September 17, 2011 at 11:47 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by lucent - September 18, 2011 at 6:32 am
RE: Why am I me? - by IATIA - September 18, 2011 at 10:59 am
RE: Why am I me? - by lucent - September 18, 2011 at 7:20 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by IATIA - September 18, 2011 at 11:42 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Epimethean - September 18, 2011 at 7:31 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by lucent - September 18, 2011 at 11:20 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Epimethean - September 18, 2011 at 11:44 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by KichigaiNeko - September 19, 2011 at 10:24 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Rhizomorph13 - September 19, 2011 at 6:18 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Epimethean - September 19, 2011 at 10:08 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by toro - October 26, 2011 at 1:04 am
RE: Why am I me? - by lucent - October 26, 2011 at 8:05 am
RE: Why am I me? - by The Grand Nudger - October 26, 2011 at 2:18 am
RE: Why am I me? - by frankiej - October 26, 2011 at 8:13 am
RE: Why am I me? - by lucent - October 26, 2011 at 8:40 am
RE: Why am I me? - by KichigaiNeko - October 26, 2011 at 8:46 am
RE: Why am I me? - by frankiej - October 26, 2011 at 8:48 am
RE: Why am I me? - by lucent - October 26, 2011 at 9:16 am
RE: Why am I me? - by KichigaiNeko - October 26, 2011 at 9:23 am
RE: Why am I me? - by lucent - October 26, 2011 at 10:28 am
RE: Why am I me? - by KichigaiNeko - October 26, 2011 at 10:42 am
RE: Why am I me? - by frankiej - October 26, 2011 at 8:43 am
RE: Why am I me? - by The Grand Nudger - October 26, 2011 at 10:39 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Violet - October 26, 2011 at 11:57 am
RE: Why am I me? - by The Grand Nudger - October 26, 2011 at 10:44 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Violet - October 26, 2011 at 12:02 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by The Grand Nudger - October 26, 2011 at 11:59 am
RE: Why am I me? - by R-e-n-n-a-t - October 26, 2011 at 10:40 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by toro - October 26, 2011 at 10:54 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by lucent - October 27, 2011 at 8:57 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by R-e-n-n-a-t - October 27, 2011 at 5:46 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by toro - October 30, 2011 at 1:43 am
RE: Why am I me? - by lucent - October 30, 2011 at 6:08 am
RE: Why am I me? - by toro - October 31, 2011 at 10:55 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Phaedra - October 31, 2011 at 11:33 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by lucent - November 1, 2011 at 1:33 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Welsh cake - November 1, 2011 at 12:32 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by toro - November 2, 2011 at 1:17 am
RE: Why am I me? - by IATIA - November 6, 2011 at 5:11 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Godschild - November 3, 2011 at 4:33 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by R-e-n-n-a-t - November 7, 2011 at 11:07 am
RE: Why am I me? - by frankiej - November 3, 2011 at 4:34 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by 5thHorseman - November 3, 2011 at 4:38 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by frankiej - November 3, 2011 at 4:39 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by The Grand Nudger - November 3, 2011 at 4:56 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Godschild - November 4, 2011 at 1:15 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Norfolk And Chance - November 12, 2011 at 8:16 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by IATIA - November 13, 2011 at 7:58 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Norfolk And Chance - November 13, 2011 at 8:11 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by IATIA - November 13, 2011 at 8:21 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Norfolk And Chance - November 13, 2011 at 8:25 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by toro - November 13, 2011 at 10:00 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by IATIA - November 13, 2011 at 8:45 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Norfolk And Chance - November 13, 2011 at 10:29 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by The Grand Nudger - November 14, 2011 at 9:18 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Epimethean - November 14, 2011 at 9:35 am
RE: Why am I me? - by The Grand Nudger - November 14, 2011 at 9:45 am
RE: Why am I me? - by ib.me.ub - November 14, 2011 at 9:59 am
RE: Why am I me? - by dogma - February 14, 2012 at 4:40 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Rhizomorph13 - February 14, 2012 at 12:03 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by dogma - February 14, 2012 at 11:38 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by KichigaiNeko - February 14, 2012 at 4:56 am
RE: Why am I me? - by jason56 - February 14, 2012 at 8:35 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Rhizomorph13 - February 15, 2012 at 12:09 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by dogma - February 15, 2012 at 2:52 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Perhaps - February 15, 2012 at 12:38 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by The Grand Nudger - February 15, 2012 at 3:33 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by dogma - February 15, 2012 at 5:37 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Rhizomorph13 - February 15, 2012 at 4:38 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by philosiver - July 12, 2012 at 6:50 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Violet - July 12, 2012 at 9:41 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Reforged - July 12, 2012 at 10:22 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by jonb - July 13, 2012 at 5:39 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Colanth - July 16, 2012 at 10:59 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by liam - July 17, 2012 at 5:49 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Comprehender - October 15, 2012 at 8:11 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Rhizomorph13 - October 15, 2012 at 9:34 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Comprehender - October 16, 2012 at 10:18 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Whateverist - October 16, 2012 at 11:09 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Rhizomorph13 - October 16, 2012 at 10:40 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Comprehender - October 20, 2012 at 11:18 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Rhizomorph13 - October 21, 2012 at 11:34 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Rhizomorph13 - October 16, 2012 at 1:08 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Whateverist - October 16, 2012 at 2:07 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Darkstar - October 21, 2012 at 1:33 am
RE: Why am I me? - by The Grand Nudger - October 21, 2012 at 11:35 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Rhizomorph13 - October 21, 2012 at 12:31 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Tempus - October 23, 2012 at 1:33 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Edwardo Piet - October 24, 2012 at 9:50 am
RE: Why am I me? - by YASHA - October 26, 2012 at 11:39 am
RE: Why am I me? - by blackjack1221 - March 6, 2013 at 8:00 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Rhizomorph13 - March 6, 2013 at 8:24 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Darkstar - March 6, 2013 at 9:01 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Jackalope - March 6, 2013 at 10:13 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Darkstar - March 6, 2013 at 10:55 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Something completely different - March 6, 2013 at 9:13 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by FragileTag - March 23, 2013 at 1:25 am
RE: Why am I me? - by KichigaiNeko - March 23, 2013 at 10:30 am
RE: Why am I me? - by FirstmadeLast - April 24, 2015 at 8:40 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Mudhammam - April 25, 2015 at 5:09 am
RE: Why am I me? - by account_inactive - December 15, 2016 at 2:49 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by FatAndFaithless - December 15, 2016 at 2:50 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by vorlon13 - December 15, 2016 at 3:06 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by abaris - December 15, 2016 at 3:24 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by vorlon13 - December 15, 2016 at 3:26 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Cato - December 15, 2016 at 10:50 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by LadyForCamus - December 15, 2016 at 11:20 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by Chas - December 17, 2016 at 12:49 pm
RE: Why am I me? - by LadyForCamus - December 16, 2016 at 8:08 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Whateverist - December 16, 2016 at 8:45 am
RE: Why am I me? - by AceBoogie - December 17, 2016 at 6:26 am
RE: Why am I me? - by bennyboy - December 17, 2016 at 6:45 am
RE: Why am I me? - by Edwardo Piet - December 17, 2016 at 6:52 am



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