(December 8, 2011 at 3:09 pm)JollyForr Wrote: I know the story itself is incoherent and false, but I'm saying whether or not any texts, or any other kind of evidence, mentions Jesus - outside of the Bible obviously.
Sure. Here's a complete list:
1. Josephus:
1A. The glaring forgery that is the "Testimonium Flavianum", so bad that even apologists are forced to admit that the passage was tampered with. The short paragraph lists in rapid fire succession every bullet point of Christian beliefs about Jesus. Since Josephus was an orthodox Jew and remained so, you can see why few apologists will try to claim the entire passage as authentic.
1B. The "Jamesian Reference". Apologists, seeking to keep Josephus on the witness stand, present another part of his Antiquities of the Jews that they say refers to Jesus. It does say "brother of Jesus, James". Too bad a few sentences later we see it refers to "Jesus bar Damneus". Jesus was a common name and Josephus tells us it's not the Jesus we're looking for.
2. Tacitus: There's an oblique reference to a "Christos" (which means "The Anointed One"). Specifically, he says that the Christians get their name from "Christos" who was crucified by "procurator" Pilate.
This is the strongest evidence that there was a Jesus behind the Christian myths. It only has the following problems:
2a. It's second century
2b. Pilate was a "prefect" not a "procurator", the latter being a title used for governors in later years.
2c. It's so oblique, it doesn't even mention Jesus by name.
2d. We can't be sure he's speaking from first hand knowledge or got the story from the Christians.
3. Talmud: The earliest Jewish reference to Jesus dates to roughly 300 CE, nearly three centuries after the alleged controversy that drove the pharisees so nuts. The problem is that this "Yeshua" had a 40 day trial, 5 disciples, and was well connected with the government. There is no date given for this trial, so it could have happened during any century. Hardly the Yeshua we're looking for.
4. Thallus: Apologetics hit a sleazy low with this claim. Upon examination, we realize we don't have any works of Thallus and have no idea what he wrote. All we have comes quoted from Christian apologists of the 3rd century. Africanus in the 3rd century wrote that Thallus wrote that there was an eclipse of the sun during a time when there shouldn't have been one.
5. Bar Sarapion: In 70 CE, he wrote a question "what did the Jews gain by killing their king". No reference to either a Jesus or a Christ or any date or any indication as to what "king" this was.
6. Seutonius: Even apologists are known to admit this isn't any evidence, as he refers to a "Chrestus" ("the good one") in Rome around 50 CE stirring up trouble for Caesar Claudius.
That's it, I believe.
In sum, not much and what little exists is questionable. The only one that might be legit is Tacitus. Min will probably tear that one apart too.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
