RE: Easy arguments against the Bible, and religion as a whole
December 28, 2011 at 11:42 pm
(This post was last modified: December 28, 2011 at 11:54 pm by chi pan.)
"It's not taken out of context, it's just a snipped quote. I didn't feel the need to quote the whole paragraph but just what was necessary for anyone reading it to understand what I was responding to. I did read the whole thing and found nothing other than a desperate attempt to justify atrocious behavior by someone who couldn't even do it well."
well i guess you missed the part where i said "so yes, God did kill people himself but he always had a good reason for it. and you may say "isn't killing against the commandments of the bible?" well directly translated the hebrew word for it is to kill out of anger or hate. to kill someone for them to pay for a crime and not out of hatred or anger is justified, which is why they encourage the death penalty in the bible as well." if your going to correct me try to understand what i say or at least read it. it not only has your answer it has your question how could you miss that?
"For many theists, "in context" means the whole book from cover to cover. Anything less is distorting the message. Quite how anyone can distort something distorted already escapes me, however. "
we're talking about my post not the bible but in context in the bible means almost the whole chapter depending on how it's divided.
"Don't try to spin it into something it's not. It's human ownership. It's slavery. Most of them (if not all of them) did not choose to be there. They cannot choose to leave. There's no difference between slavers and slave owners in the bible and slave owners in actual history. It doesn't matter of they're treated well. "
i'm not spinning it they really were treated as servants and in fact the bible often uses the word servant instead of slave. and why do you make things so black and white? things aren't black and white like that example: killing is wrong. what about for self defense? well i guess that's ok. what about for the defense of others? well that's ok too i guess. what if your a solder and your ordered to do it? well i guess that's fine too.
"It's not comparable to butlers because butlers can choose to leave their job at any time and butlers have freedoms of their own, they're paid for their service (and not a slave wage mind you), and they can quit at any time."
actually slaves had a chioce in the matter too. they could leave, but b/c they had their payment in advance they have to give a lot of that back they didn't earn. often times someone's family would buy them out of slavery so your claim is JUST FALSE. and like i said, they are paid as well but you don't listen to a word i say do u? it was even in your own source you first presented to me and yet you don't read your own source?
"So according to the colored blue passage, it's okay to beat your slave to death, as long as you do it over the course of days."
no that's a couple of days after you beat them. if they die a couple of days after beating, you can pretty much say they did not die from the beating. and just b/c you can spank a child doesn't mean your gonna do it all the time for no reason. and why would anyone maim their slave? what good would they be if they can't work? slaves were there to work, not to get beaten to satisfy the master. just b/c it's allowed doesn't mean it's regular if they do a good job then they are treated well. if they steal something on the job they can get beat for it.
"No. No I don't. Perhaps it's just my modern sensibility and my own love of women in general that's giving me a bit of bias vs. the bible's inability to recognize women as more than mere playthings for men"
they weren't just play things. are you forgetting the part of the bible where it says love your wife? or is that taken for granted b/c you cannot comprehend what love is? women back then could not support themselves. this is why they lived with their parrents until they got married. this is why the parents decide who the daughter marries. this is how it's been not just in jewish society but in all societies b/c women could not take care of themselves until about 100 years ago when jobs started forming and possibilities opened up as children could go to school with dreams of being whatever they want to be rather than just following the family business. they didn't really have public schools back then people did what they were taught to do by their families.
"Do I consider a fine to be punishment for raping a woman, getting her as a wife (and all the free labor that women are forced to do for their husbands in the bible as well as the children they can bear for you), and possibly a tie to a powerful family in the exchange?"
do you honestly think that family would give him a cent after he violated their daughter? i'm telling you this was a very shameful act back in the day. you sure lay down some low fines but why don't i lay down some high ones. theft, assult, breaking and entering, arson etc. are those serious enough for ya? yes they include jail time too but again, they didn't have a lot of money to keep people in jails and support them for the rest of their days. hell if they had those back then a lot of people would want to go to jail it's free food. that's why they had the death penalty for a lot of things.
"Commandment #6 says: “You shall not murder."
wow does no one read what i put on there. IF ALL OF YOU HAVE TO TAKE WHAT I SAY OUT OF CONTEXT TO PROVE YOUR POINT THEN YOU HAVE NO POINT AT ALL. i already mentioned what i said to faith no more so just read what i said to him i'm not putting that quote out there again. and let me just make a little correction. he did not so much kill them as much as sentenced them to death and exicuted them. there happy? yes the bible supports the death penalty.
"Yes. I know this because I've seen the arguements hashed, rehashed, and double rehashed as well as refuted numerous times by evolutionists, fans of science, and anyone who has any working knowledge of the topic.
I've also done all of that myself with people with good knowledge of the topic myself. I don't enjoy tooting my own horn, but I do have some command of the topic."
i don't know what eyes you have but i've seen the opposite. i put some of these debates on here somewhere way back but people don't seam to care enough to watch them.
"Defenders of slavery noted that in the Bible, Abraham had slaves. They point to the Ten Commandments, noting that "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, ... nor his manservant, nor his maidservant." In the New Testament, Paul returned a runaway slave, Philemon, to his master, and, although slavery was widespread throughout the Roman world, Jesus never spoke out against it."
notice how they call them servants rather than slaves. maybe they weren't slaves at all but servants.
again i ask HOW DOES SOMEONE MAKE A LIVING BACK THEN IF THEY'RE HOMELESS? and like i've said before, they sell themselves into slavery and they can buy themselves out.
oh and one more thing do you know why the man had to marry the woman he raped? b/c back then a woman who lost her virginity before marriage was considered worthless by other men. so he owes it to her to marry her since no one else will b/c she lost her virginity. it's doing the woman justice
well i guess you missed the part where i said "so yes, God did kill people himself but he always had a good reason for it. and you may say "isn't killing against the commandments of the bible?" well directly translated the hebrew word for it is to kill out of anger or hate. to kill someone for them to pay for a crime and not out of hatred or anger is justified, which is why they encourage the death penalty in the bible as well." if your going to correct me try to understand what i say or at least read it. it not only has your answer it has your question how could you miss that?
"For many theists, "in context" means the whole book from cover to cover. Anything less is distorting the message. Quite how anyone can distort something distorted already escapes me, however. "
we're talking about my post not the bible but in context in the bible means almost the whole chapter depending on how it's divided.
"Don't try to spin it into something it's not. It's human ownership. It's slavery. Most of them (if not all of them) did not choose to be there. They cannot choose to leave. There's no difference between slavers and slave owners in the bible and slave owners in actual history. It doesn't matter of they're treated well. "
i'm not spinning it they really were treated as servants and in fact the bible often uses the word servant instead of slave. and why do you make things so black and white? things aren't black and white like that example: killing is wrong. what about for self defense? well i guess that's ok. what about for the defense of others? well that's ok too i guess. what if your a solder and your ordered to do it? well i guess that's fine too.
"It's not comparable to butlers because butlers can choose to leave their job at any time and butlers have freedoms of their own, they're paid for their service (and not a slave wage mind you), and they can quit at any time."
actually slaves had a chioce in the matter too. they could leave, but b/c they had their payment in advance they have to give a lot of that back they didn't earn. often times someone's family would buy them out of slavery so your claim is JUST FALSE. and like i said, they are paid as well but you don't listen to a word i say do u? it was even in your own source you first presented to me and yet you don't read your own source?
"So according to the colored blue passage, it's okay to beat your slave to death, as long as you do it over the course of days."
no that's a couple of days after you beat them. if they die a couple of days after beating, you can pretty much say they did not die from the beating. and just b/c you can spank a child doesn't mean your gonna do it all the time for no reason. and why would anyone maim their slave? what good would they be if they can't work? slaves were there to work, not to get beaten to satisfy the master. just b/c it's allowed doesn't mean it's regular if they do a good job then they are treated well. if they steal something on the job they can get beat for it.
"No. No I don't. Perhaps it's just my modern sensibility and my own love of women in general that's giving me a bit of bias vs. the bible's inability to recognize women as more than mere playthings for men"
they weren't just play things. are you forgetting the part of the bible where it says love your wife? or is that taken for granted b/c you cannot comprehend what love is? women back then could not support themselves. this is why they lived with their parrents until they got married. this is why the parents decide who the daughter marries. this is how it's been not just in jewish society but in all societies b/c women could not take care of themselves until about 100 years ago when jobs started forming and possibilities opened up as children could go to school with dreams of being whatever they want to be rather than just following the family business. they didn't really have public schools back then people did what they were taught to do by their families.
"Do I consider a fine to be punishment for raping a woman, getting her as a wife (and all the free labor that women are forced to do for their husbands in the bible as well as the children they can bear for you), and possibly a tie to a powerful family in the exchange?"
do you honestly think that family would give him a cent after he violated their daughter? i'm telling you this was a very shameful act back in the day. you sure lay down some low fines but why don't i lay down some high ones. theft, assult, breaking and entering, arson etc. are those serious enough for ya? yes they include jail time too but again, they didn't have a lot of money to keep people in jails and support them for the rest of their days. hell if they had those back then a lot of people would want to go to jail it's free food. that's why they had the death penalty for a lot of things.
"Commandment #6 says: “You shall not murder."
wow does no one read what i put on there. IF ALL OF YOU HAVE TO TAKE WHAT I SAY OUT OF CONTEXT TO PROVE YOUR POINT THEN YOU HAVE NO POINT AT ALL. i already mentioned what i said to faith no more so just read what i said to him i'm not putting that quote out there again. and let me just make a little correction. he did not so much kill them as much as sentenced them to death and exicuted them. there happy? yes the bible supports the death penalty.
"Yes. I know this because I've seen the arguements hashed, rehashed, and double rehashed as well as refuted numerous times by evolutionists, fans of science, and anyone who has any working knowledge of the topic.
I've also done all of that myself with people with good knowledge of the topic myself. I don't enjoy tooting my own horn, but I do have some command of the topic."
i don't know what eyes you have but i've seen the opposite. i put some of these debates on here somewhere way back but people don't seam to care enough to watch them.
"Defenders of slavery noted that in the Bible, Abraham had slaves. They point to the Ten Commandments, noting that "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, ... nor his manservant, nor his maidservant." In the New Testament, Paul returned a runaway slave, Philemon, to his master, and, although slavery was widespread throughout the Roman world, Jesus never spoke out against it."
notice how they call them servants rather than slaves. maybe they weren't slaves at all but servants.
again i ask HOW DOES SOMEONE MAKE A LIVING BACK THEN IF THEY'RE HOMELESS? and like i've said before, they sell themselves into slavery and they can buy themselves out.
oh and one more thing do you know why the man had to marry the woman he raped? b/c back then a woman who lost her virginity before marriage was considered worthless by other men. so he owes it to her to marry her since no one else will b/c she lost her virginity. it's doing the woman justice
