RE: Do you believe in free will?
March 28, 2012 at 11:02 am
(This post was last modified: March 28, 2012 at 11:04 am by NoMoreFaith.)
(March 28, 2012 at 7:17 am)tackattack Wrote: 6- So be objective measurability is your factor for what’s real? If thoughts are abstract and not phenomenal would math or logic ever be considered real to you. They’re certainly useful and rational and necessitate the physical medium on which they’re stored/used. My question is if a strict physical materialist considers thoughts as objectively verifiable or not? If thoughts are predictable wouldn’t they be objectifiable and measurable?
Yes. More to the point, if thought was not measurable and identifiable as a electro/bio/chemical process, you couldn't use electrodes to control things remotely, as you can now (although it hasn't filtered down to free market products yet).
The technology is (relatively) basic at the moment, but year by year we do more and more amazing things based entirely on this premise that thoughts are not only predictable, but objectifiable and measurable, so that we can use that information to influence the brain using external methods.
More to the point, if thought is something separate from the brain, why does affecting the brain through chemical, electrical or ultrasound affect what it does and how it thinks (for instance increase in seratonin makes you happy, increase in dopamine can affect your reward driven learning).
(March 28, 2012 at 7:17 am)tackattack Wrote: 7- So let me continue that thought. Part of who we are is our perception and desires. Those desires and perceptions are both outputs and inputs to the causal chain. If they can be shown to be altered, shows we have the ability to not be the sum of what physiological elements determine to be “us” or our agent. If we can supply the input (with desires, goals and perceptions) to the causal chain we are enacting our freedom from a determined course.
Does that follow logically?
I think its best I describe my interpretation of your argument so that you can tell me if I got it all wrong.
Are you saying that there is a feedback loop between conscious and subconscious states. What the subconscious projects, the conscious perceives, and feeds back to the subconscious, changes to its "program" based upon the conscious reasoning of the perceived information from the subconscious.
Wow, that was a mouthful.
So if we can show that the conscious can input back to the subconscious to change our state, then this is a demonstration of free will.
Does that match what you were describing? Its at this point I have to start with my unproven conjecture instead of any reliance on material science.
What the power of the conscious really represents is a way of ordering information, and simplifying them into more manageable models or symbols.
In order to reason, the "self", the "I", the "Me" is a created symbol to holistically represent all the information which is related to your personal body.
What this does not indicate however, is that the ordering and reasoning is uncaused, and disconnected from the biology itself.
The feedback loop is causal in itself but the mechanism for simplifying overly complex information so that it can transmitted back into the subconscious in a more manageable form.
While a link in the causal chain of thinking, this does not imply freedom from causation any more than a fractal picture is free from the maths. Its purely symbolic in nature.
My head hurts.
Self-authenticating private evidence is useless, because it is indistinguishable from the illusion of it. ― Kel, Kelosophy Blog
If you’re going to watch tele, you should watch Scooby Doo. That show was so cool because every time there’s a church with a ghoul, or a ghost in a school. They looked beneath the mask and what was inside?
The f**king janitor or the dude who runs the waterslide. Throughout history every mystery. Ever solved has turned out to be. Not Magic. ― Tim Minchin, Storm
If you’re going to watch tele, you should watch Scooby Doo. That show was so cool because every time there’s a church with a ghoul, or a ghost in a school. They looked beneath the mask and what was inside?
The f**king janitor or the dude who runs the waterslide. Throughout history every mystery. Ever solved has turned out to be. Not Magic. ― Tim Minchin, Storm