Better reasons to quit Christianity

[spockrates]

Because predestination/precognition, by definition, excludes choice (and this again is assuming linear progression, not just linear perception, of time -because we've already tossed out perception when invoking the precog).

Yes, I agree. By the definition you appear to be using, predestination excludes the possibility of choice.

Your "choice" has already occurred. Your "choice" is going to go one way only. Your "choice" has no possibility of going any other way. If it did...then the precog would not know the future....ergo would not be a precog. That's kind of a requirement for precognitive ability, accuracy. Capeche?
[/qoute]

No, mi dispiace.

You want me to sit here and argue time as it applies to catholic superstition? Thanks, I'll pass. What about this requires an example, every "choice" is an example, no specifics are required. Precognition and predestination are over-arching concepts as they apply to time and "choice". I'm not interested in letting you waltz past the problems with the very premise of precognitive ability as it applies to choice in order to argue competing superstitious drivel regarding the same. When you ask me "show me how this understanding of gods" -anything- is incorrect let me preempt the question. The point they went off the rails was the moment they invoked a magical being in the first place. I was only half joking when I mentioned that to you so many posts ago. I have to ask you this, in what way would we expect a primitive and superstitious understanding of time and choice to be a factually accurate representation of reality?

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The Catholic Encyclopedia entry on Predestination says,[15]:

"[...] God, owing to His infallible prescience of the future, has appointed and ordained from eternity all events occurring in time, especially those that directly proceed from, or at least are influenced by, man's free will."

Pope John Paul II wrote[16]:

"Salvation in Christ Is Offered to All
The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all."
"[...] [G]race comes from Christ; it is the result of his Sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation."

The Catholic Catechism says:

"God predestines no one to go to hell"[17]

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What am I supposed to say about this Spock, it's unsubstantiated horseshit, start to finish.....tell me why I shouldn't utterly dismiss it on principle? I mean, I'm already humoring the idea of fortune telling, how much garbage do I have to swallow to have this discussion with you? How much garbage do you have to load the discussion with before you can even begin to argue a point?

(try the search function btw, this conversation has been done before, in a long drawn out specific and superstition crushing way. Long story short : read moar sci-fi)

Not sure I'm understanding you correctly, are you defining predestination as predetermining what choices someone will make? If so, then I have to agree that Catholicism's understanding of the word is akin to Amish road apples. But I don't yet see how limiting the choices one makes is the same as making the choices for one. If we define predestination as predetermining what the consequences will be for the choices one freely makes, then there is no mess on the road to clean up. Is there?

Now lets suppose I decide to agree with you and then go to Christians and say I don't believe predestination is possible, so I don't believe there is a God who predestines anything. I can just imagine what they will say: First they will ask me what I think predestination is. I'll tell them it is God predetermining what choices we make.

Then they will say something like, "You poor, deluded fool! Why do you entertain such atheistic twisting of the truth? Predestination is God predetermining what choices we have, and what the consequences of those choices will be. But it is in no way God making us choose one way, or another! Listen to reason. Listen to us and stay away from them. We won't lead you astray."

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[quote='spockrates' pid='324673' dateline='1345343345']
The concept seems to be taught by scripture, yes. Why do you ask?

Why do you have to ask why I ask? You just said suffering may be justified because it's temporary, if there's an eternal hell, there's eternal suffering. Which puts you back at square one regarding your justification.

I have to ask, because I'm curious how it fits into the task at hand, which is to show how it is impossible for an omnipotent being to exist. Sounds more like changing the topic to explaining who an omnibenevolent being does not exist. I've split this off from the rest of your reply, if you care to discuss this topic separately.