Alcoholics Anonymous and the like

[Chas]

Chas my problem with AA is that they tell people that they must accept that alcoholism is a disease that they are powerless to control. Alcoholism is an addiction and not a disease. It's a form of substance abuse. The literal definition of alcoholism is a person who's life is affected or who affects others by their drinking. Like many other questionable lifestyle choices - overweight, obesity, gambling addiction, drug abuse, etc it's a moral issue. To classify it as a disease ignores the morality and lifestyle choice and of course prioritizing your core values entirely. Do you value your wellbeing? Do you value the wellbeing of your loved ones? If you're an alcoholic you may say that you value these things, and yet your actions speak against it - because if you truly valued it then you'd put it ahead of something that you do not value - self harm and hurting your loved ones.

Addiction isn't disease. Those who are addicted to smoking don't have a disease - it may give them cancer, that's a disease, but it's unaffected by the addiction. Once you get cancer it doesn't matter if you keep smoking or if you stop smoking, if you beat the addiction or if you don't beat the addiction either way you'll still have the disease - cancer.

Your understanding of addiction is incorrect. I don't care whether people subscribe to the disease model or not, but it is not a moral issue.

Addiction is a physical and psychological disorder that requires treatment not moralizing from ignorant people.

I've met many many alcoholics - and the sad thing is that most of their friends and family don't see it as alcoholism. Is this person an alcoholic? No. Why not? Because they don't drink before 6PM and alcoholics can't control their drinking at all. Hmm - well I ask them - the thing about alcoholism is that the alcohol affects you and/or your loved ones - does their drinking affect them? Yes. Then that's alcoholism. It's as simple as that. It doesn't matter how they drink, how often they drink, what they drink, when they drink, where they drink, if their drinking is a problem they are an alcoholic because they're doing something that has obvious negative ramifications in their life.

That has absolutely nothing to do with addiction being a disease or disorder.

You don't beat your wife and kids because you have a disease - you don't go to work hung-over because you have a disease - you do it because you're an alcoholic.

You are conflating alcoholism with being drunk. Without alcohol, the alcoholic doesn't beat his wife, to use your example.

AA is a non-medical approach, it works yes - but not for everyone because - it's an incomplete system.

I certainly never claimed AA was perfect. I don't claim that AA is the best or only way for someone to get and stay sober.
I am claiming only that AA works for many people, including atheists.