Order vs. Randomness

[Rayaan]

Perhaps that "apparent" order, etc. is more imagined than real?

Could be, although it depends on various things such as what you're looking at and from what angle/distance, your subjective interpretation, and so on.

The focus of my OP was more about whether or not randomness is a description of nature at the smallest scales. My vote would be, no.

I feel like apparent order is appealing because to a certain degree correlating patterns is necessary for survival it may be a sort of anthropomorphic tendency within us. You may be interested in de broglie's pilot wave.

It's an appealing thing to me also. As for de Broglie's pilot wave, I have no knowledge regarding that, but I'll look it up. Thanks.

We have, on occasion, had theists show up touting how beautiful the universe is and how everything operates like clockwork.

Theists, eh? ... Well guess what, Min? There are also atheists who think that the universe is beautiful, to the same degree as theists or perhaps even more.

Refer to orogenicman's threads where he posted many photos of stars, galaxies, and astronomical sights:

http://atheistforums.org/search.php?acti...order=desc

^ And in those threads he received many kudoses and awe-filled comments from atheist members after posting them. Even you gave him kudoses after seeing them, several times in fact. So, you're sort of creating a double standard if you single out the theists just for touting how beautiful the universe is, considering the fact that atheist members have done the same thing by posting photos of the universe and giving a thumbs up to them (including yourself) and saying how beautiful they are. But maybe you just forgot that too easily.

But according to chaos theory, it is the natural tendency for order to arise from disorder.

Yes, many processes in nature do show order arising from disorder. Nevertheless, the "disorder" is not actually proven to be truly random. Likewise, the "chaos" in chaos theory is not actually chaotic in the sense of having no underlying order behind it. It only appears to be random, but is mathematically a deterministic evolution, thus not truly random.

Chaos appears to be random because they are nonlinear and unpredictable. Chaos theory deals with things that are effectively impossible to predict and/or control, things such as turbulence, weather, the stock market, snowflake formation, and so on. But being nonlinear and unpredictable doesn't necessarily mean that those things are inherently random. It's just that we haven't recognized any patterns in them, i.e. because we lack information.

One definition of chaos that I read states, "Chaotic systems are distinguished by sensitive dependence on initial conditions and by having evolution through phase space that appears to be quite random." So again, they just appear to be random. And studies have shown that there is still an underlying order behind systems known as "chaotic."

Read the following:

We can thus understand that the name "chaos theory" did not stem from the fact that the existents it studied were truly chaotic, in the sense of not having any underlying order or structure. In fact, despite the seeming disorganization upon first impression, there is indeed a vast amount of order in systems known as "chaotic" in the technical sense of the word. Indeed, the phenomena were first named as being chaotic, and then discovered, through closer examination, to be orderly on a fundamental level. The name for the systems and the theory describing them was not born of factual observation, but of hasty beforehand assumptions which were later refuted by deeper study.

http://voices.yahoo.com/chaos-theory-not...28812.html

So a simple, if slightly imprecise, way of describing chaos is "chaotic systems are distinguished by sensitive dependence on initial conditions and by having evolution through phase space that appears to be quite random."

[...]

However, it should be noted that despite its "random" appearance, chaos is a deterministic evolution. In addition, there are chaotic systems that do not have periodic orbits (periodic orbits only survive in the boundaries of KAM tori, and for sufficiently strong perturbations from the integrable case, islands do not necessarily survive). Furthermore, in so-called quantum chaos, trajectories do not diverge exponentially because they are constrained by the fact that the entire evolution must be unitary.

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Chaos.html

As of right now it's hard to say exactly what it is. It's a puzzle with a a lot of the pieces still missing.

I agree with you. I agree that the concept of randomness is quite a difficult one to grasp. My opinion is that we can never be able to prove that anything in nature is truly random, simply because we lack information. Pattern recognition is something retroactive. Therefore, until a pattern reveals itself, the perception is of randomness. That doesn't necessarily mean that it is truly random.

One thing that I do strongly believe, however, is that if pure randomness existed at the most fundamental level of reality, then it would've been simply impossible that this universe that we live in would ever be created out of that primordial randomness, even in an infinite amount of time.