Order vs. Randomness

[Rayaan]

No... their orderly interactions and relationship with everything else is perfectly explained by physics... and the physics of our universe just happen to be exactly as they are (possibly) because that's the nature of a flat universe with zero energy, produced by chance in a quantum vacuum, where there is no time and no space, no energy and no matter, or "nothing" as some call it

And that brings us back to order again, because the fact that everything is "perfectly explained by physics" is what indicates the orderliness in nature.

Greater explainability = Greater relational properties in nature = Greater order

And science is all about explaining reality by looking for patterns and relationships between the things that we see around us. If there was no order in nature, then there won't even be any such thing as "science" or "explainability" because everything would be just random. We can never explain interactions which are random, and by that, I mean truly random.

... your claim is merely tautologous: It must be intelligent because it is intelligent.

No, my claim is that order and intelligence correlate so perfectly that they are both fundamental aspects of reality and that neither can exist without the other.

Let me break it down like this:

1. If there was no fundamental intelligence or a mind behind reality, then it is simply not logical to think that the initial physical interactions changed from a seemingly orderless behavior to an orderly behavior all by themselves (especially to the degree of order we see in intelligent beings such as ourselves), unless you believe that:
A) all those interactions which created us had some kind of "a mind of their own" or
B) that the interactions going from an orderless behavior to an orderly behavior and then working in tandem to create us was purely a random/accidental process (of which the probability of happening is vanishingly small), or
C) that the laws of physics were finely tuned for intelligence to emerge, i.e. known as the anthropic principle.

2. If there is no fundamental order behind reality, then there would be nothing but randomness, since "randomness" means the absence of order.

Therefore, it is illogical to eliminate order and intelligence (either one or both) as being fundamental aspects of reality.

If you think the cause of the Universe is intelligent, don't you think you've opened a far bigger can of worms? Doesn't that require far more explanation than the origin of the Universe, or even a quantum soup, or even nothing if THAT IS the ultimate "first cause"?

Your argument that an intelligent cause would require "far more explanation" indicates that you believe that there has to be greater explainability as we go deeper.

And once again: Greater explainability = Greater relational properties in nature = Greater order

And, as I explained above, there can't be order without a fundamental intelligence.

And if you can't articulate what that is and see no way to do so in the future (whereas physics makes progress without appealing to intelligent causes), what good is it to postulate?

Because it is more reasonable and consistent; we don't need rocket science for things which we have established already by using our intellect.

I've claimed a one directional connection (no order => no intelligence), not, I repeat, not a correspondence or equivalence (order <=> intelligence). You need gravity to play golf. That don't mean that both are the same, or that fundamentally, gravity is a game of golf.

Sorry, then. That was my mistake.