Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: June 13, 2024, 1:38 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Order vs. Randomness
#70
RE: Order vs. Randomness
(February 3, 2014 at 7:17 am)Rayaan Wrote:
(February 3, 2014 at 6:10 am)Alex K Wrote: Does mathematics capture the essence of everything that goes on in the universe?

Perhaps it doesn't, but I think that many people (especially physicists) believe that to be the case, i.e. that the essence of the universe can be best explained by mathematics. That's why they toil with complex equations and things like M-theory and all that kind of stuff in hopes of being able to find a "Theory of Everything" (TOE). The more they study physics, the more they discover mathematical regularities, which are essentially patterns in a mathematical realm.
Being one who works in related fields, I would agree that this is what some colleagues feel, especially the more they are related to the mathematical faculty. I also know some string theorists who would not insist that the Superstring is the ultimate theory which is one with the universe. I don't see a reason why the Superstring, even if it should at some level be a correct theory of quantum gravity and fundamental particles and interactions, should be the absolute end point any more than other currently testable theories such as the Standard Model. Historically, such hopes were always unfounded.
Quote:But I think that these patterns themselves are real, and I equate them as only vague aspects of a universal "mind" or "intelligence" behind everything since even our own self-aspects such knowledge, understanding, self-awareness, and emotions are essentially nothing but specific patterns unfolding in spacetime, while spacetime itself is a mathematical structure.
Ok, I don't know whether they are real (on some days I'm a mathematical Platonist, on other days I'm not) but let's say it is so for the sake of argument.
Why then intelligence? Even with scare quotes, what justifies it?
Quote:And these networks of patterns which create our self-awareness are probably already embedded everywhere at the most fundamental level or reality (or maybe in a mathematical realm only), and if so then perhaps we don't really "own" our consciousness, as we think we do. The consciousness is everywhere, and we are just receiving some of it through our own patterns in spacetime.

I get that idea, I don't think it is so. We know many examples where we control the rules of a "game", and choose them to be extremely simple, and can observe emergent complexity. Think of the game of life with a certain size field. There is complete control over the rules, and they are just two instructions. Would you say that all possible resulting life-like complexity you get out of it if you start with all possible initial conditions (*) is encoded in those two simple algorithmic rules to the extent that these two rules are identical with these complex "worlds" which can result from them? I just don't think it is sensible to equate the two.

(*) I consider the union of all these games, thus eliminating the information content in any specific initial condition from the argument, reminiscent of many worlds QM
Reply



Messages In This Thread
Order vs. Randomness - by Rayaan - January 25, 2014 at 10:41 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Minimalist - January 25, 2014 at 11:09 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Odysseus - January 25, 2014 at 11:21 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Minimalist - January 25, 2014 at 11:40 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Rayaan - January 26, 2014 at 7:41 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Zen Badger - January 26, 2014 at 1:36 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Odysseus - January 26, 2014 at 4:35 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Zen Badger - January 26, 2014 at 11:34 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Odysseus - January 27, 2014 at 6:23 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Assimilate - January 26, 2014 at 2:56 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Rayaan - January 26, 2014 at 7:40 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - January 26, 2014 at 4:40 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Minimalist - January 26, 2014 at 4:43 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by StuW - January 26, 2014 at 5:03 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Darkstar - January 26, 2014 at 11:52 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Assimilate - January 27, 2014 at 12:01 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Mudhammam - January 26, 2014 at 6:11 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Rayaan - January 26, 2014 at 11:21 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Alex K - January 28, 2014 at 12:17 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Angrboda - January 26, 2014 at 9:31 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Assimilate - January 26, 2014 at 11:40 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Rayaan - January 27, 2014 at 1:05 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Mudhammam - January 27, 2014 at 1:41 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Neo-Scholastic - January 28, 2014 at 8:16 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Mudhammam - January 28, 2014 at 12:16 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Assimilate - January 27, 2014 at 2:27 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Neo-Scholastic - January 28, 2014 at 12:47 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Alex K - January 28, 2014 at 3:47 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by houseofcantor - January 28, 2014 at 9:13 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Rayaan - January 29, 2014 at 6:49 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Alex K - January 30, 2014 at 8:40 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by KichigaiNeko - January 29, 2014 at 6:51 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Rayaan - January 30, 2014 at 7:15 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Mudhammam - January 30, 2014 at 8:18 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by bennyboy - January 29, 2014 at 10:56 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Mudhammam - January 30, 2014 at 8:45 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Alex K - January 30, 2014 at 8:54 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Neo-Scholastic - January 31, 2014 at 2:14 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Mudhammam - January 31, 2014 at 8:32 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Mudhammam - January 30, 2014 at 8:57 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by houseofcantor - January 30, 2014 at 9:08 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Brian37 - January 30, 2014 at 9:09 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Neo-Scholastic - February 1, 2014 at 12:30 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Chas - January 30, 2014 at 9:51 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Rayaan - January 31, 2014 at 2:31 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Whateverist - February 2, 2014 at 7:19 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Mudhammam - January 31, 2014 at 2:54 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Alex K - January 31, 2014 at 3:35 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Rayaan - February 1, 2014 at 7:07 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Mudhammam - February 1, 2014 at 2:51 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Rayaan - February 2, 2014 at 8:11 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Mudhammam - February 2, 2014 at 9:03 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Angrboda - February 2, 2014 at 6:37 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Rayaan - February 3, 2014 at 4:09 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Alex K - February 3, 2014 at 4:41 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Mudhammam - February 3, 2014 at 5:13 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Rayaan - February 3, 2014 at 5:44 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Alex K - February 3, 2014 at 6:10 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Mudhammam - February 3, 2014 at 5:48 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Rayaan - February 3, 2014 at 5:59 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Mudhammam - February 3, 2014 at 6:08 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Whateverist - February 3, 2014 at 11:14 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Tonus - February 3, 2014 at 6:39 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Rayaan - February 3, 2014 at 7:17 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Alex K - February 8, 2014 at 2:21 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by FreeTony - February 3, 2014 at 7:47 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Rayaan - February 4, 2014 at 2:53 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by FreeTony - February 4, 2014 at 6:36 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Rayaan - February 8, 2014 at 1:58 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Sword of Christ - February 8, 2014 at 5:25 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Rayaan - February 10, 2014 at 7:27 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Alex K - February 10, 2014 at 9:39 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Rayaan - February 16, 2014 at 8:49 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Angrboda - February 18, 2014 at 2:04 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Rayaan - February 18, 2014 at 12:27 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Rayaan - February 20, 2014 at 2:57 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Angrboda - February 20, 2014 at 4:23 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Rayaan - February 21, 2014 at 6:21 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Angrboda - February 21, 2014 at 7:28 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Rayaan - February 22, 2014 at 3:17 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Angrboda - February 22, 2014 at 3:26 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by *Deidre* - February 22, 2014 at 5:02 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Rayaan - February 23, 2014 at 3:51 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Angrboda - February 23, 2014 at 1:20 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by truthBtold - February 23, 2014 at 4:32 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by *Deidre* - February 23, 2014 at 4:24 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Rayaan - February 23, 2014 at 5:11 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Angrboda - February 23, 2014 at 5:53 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by truthBtold - February 23, 2014 at 6:18 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Rayaan - February 23, 2014 at 6:49 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Angrboda - February 23, 2014 at 7:36 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Mr. Moncrieff - February 23, 2014 at 6:35 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Rayaan - February 23, 2014 at 8:20 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Angrboda - February 23, 2014 at 9:10 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Rayaan - February 23, 2014 at 10:32 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Angrboda - February 23, 2014 at 10:49 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Rayaan - February 23, 2014 at 11:25 pm
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by fr0d0 - February 24, 2014 at 5:31 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Rayaan - March 1, 2014 at 7:12 am
RE: Order vs. Randomness - by Rayaan - March 1, 2014 at 7:14 am

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Science and Randomness Mark 13:13 49 13118 January 6, 2013 at 8:19 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)