RE: The Bible is the claim, not the evidence
February 11, 2014 at 10:00 am
(This post was last modified: February 11, 2014 at 10:16 am by Sword of Christ.)
(February 10, 2014 at 2:07 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: But the first thing to ask someone who claims to have such an answer is 'how do you know?'.
You don't know that's why it's called faith. You think it's true for what you consider to be various good reasons in the absence of certain knowledge you don't in fact have.
Quote: If their answer is scripture
You potentially know some details of Gods character and his relationship to humanity from scripture if the source of the revelation is God himself. You need to take it on faith/trust of course. You really can't just say "God exists because the Bible says so" to someone who doesn't believe it and expect them to believe in it based on that argument however.
Quote: the natural follow-up question is 'how did they know?'.
They knew because they had some kind of experience of God and God informed them through this experience of certain details about the nature of his reality/being. There's no way to know whether this happened or not but you can have faith in it God is a rational and reasonable proposition and basis for our existence.
Quote: If the method for knowing is something that can't be verified, like revelation, it can't truly be said to be knowledge
It will be knowledge if it's true but still have to apply faith if you choose to believe in it seeing as you can't know for certain whether it is or isn't.
Quote:only belief, as evidenced by contradictory revelations.
Atheism is only a belief which is contradictory to all other beliefs that claim the existence of something else.
Quote:As a rule, we DO entertain doubts over that.
So you're doing much the same thing as someone who has a faith in God then.
Quote:It's not possible to prove something is the tri-omni creator of the universe, but it would be well within the realm of science to prove the existence of a cosmically-powerful being that wasn't using its power to conceal itself from science.
God doesn't use his power to conceal himself from science he just isn't available to science given the nature of what he is. Science can only study physical, observable and detectable things.
Quote:If you could prove 'atheism isnt true', by which I interpret you to mean that there is a real being who fits the description of what you mean when you say 'God', there would be no atheists.
God is an entirely unfalsifiable proposition though seeing as science is unable study or observe him. It can study the effects of Go but that would cover the entirety of the observable universe which is the creation of God, so that's just what science already studies.
Quote:And all you need to do to 'disprove atheism' is prove God.
It will help if you a can appreciate the impossibility of this.
Quote: You could greatly weaken 'atheism' (reduce the number of atheists) if you could prove the odds of God are at least 10%.
You have to decide what the odds are yourself based on the arguments for and against. I'm putting the odds for God at 99.9%.
Quote:Caveat: The phrase 'atheism isn't true' is confusing. Atheism is not believing in any God or gods.
Theism is a belief in God and/or gods. You're saying this belief is wrong and shouldn't be held by anyone and I'm saying it's right and should be held by everyone, seeing as it's right. Therefore you have one kind of claim and you have the other claim, one will be correct and the other will be incorrect. There is no way to be able to know who has it right factually through science, at least as far as God himself is concerned. You would be able to prove something like Zeus with science but Christians and most other contemporary religions don't believe in those kinds of gods. They do virtually all believe in non-physical realm/s or layers of reality but this you can't scientifically prove this either. Near Death experiences are probably as close to a demonstration of this reality as you can get though an atheist could still claim it's some kind of a material based hallucination.
Quote:It's a state of mind. It is not the claim that there is no God or are not gods.
The claim that you don't or shouldn't believe in God/s and then is much the same difference.
Quote:Theism isn't the claim that there IS such a being(s)
Yes it is? You can't know God exists therefore some faith is involved but we're not talking gullibility or a wishful desire to believe something you kind of really know isn't true, as atheists tend to read interpret the word in this context. God is a perfectly rational and reasonable proposition and gives you a good basis for the universe and grounding in life.
Quote:Better just to say 'it's not true that there is no God', or better, 'God exists'.
Indeed it is better to say that though atheists would say the opposite, implying God doesn't exist! hock:
Even if you say something like there may or may not be a God, or that it doesn't matter or some kind of Deism is possible you will go about life as though God doesn't exist so God as far as you're concerned God may as well not exist.
Come all ye faithful joyful and triumphant.