(April 5, 2014 at 1:48 pm)Esquilax Wrote:(April 5, 2014 at 1:12 pm)ShaMan Wrote: Unlike theists and atheists, I have no need to demonstrate anything to anyone who is unwilling or unable or uninterested in seeing. If, on the other hand, you were to experience for yourself the things I have personally experienced, you'd have no doubts. For the record... I can also show you 'proof' that evolution is real, but it serves no purpose other than edifying some conflated sense of self-importance for having 'evidence' and 'knowledge' on my side. Why the hostility? Have I offended you, or do my beliefs (which you have no experience with) offend you? And, if I've not offended you, then why tear down something which you are completely ignorant of?
You don't offend me. The same old, tired religious rhetoric about personal experiences and those that don't want to believe doesn't offend me either, no matter the source. But I happen to find some enjoyment in analyzing what people say, finding what works, and finding what epistemic weak points there are.
This isn't offense, it's simply an observation made in a forum designed to allow debate; reality isn't dependent on whether or not a person wants to believe it. Having knowledge, and being able to support it with evidence, isn't "self-important," it's simply a function of a rational belief system. And if you're going to start out an explanation of your beliefs with "I'm not going to address those who don't already believe, or want to, because they won't believe me," then don't get arch when somebody calls you on how spurious that is.
Actually - I would think that ALL of us in this group would be more than happy to "SEE" the proof that is being claimed - because that is what WE are looking for - substantiated statements from people who make them.
IF any thiest provided us - who are intelligent and logical - with proof that is both repeatable and verifiable - that without question proves that their religious belief is true - you would expect everyone to get on board.
The problem is what is expected as proof!
IF one is a christian - and a muslim would want to say that HIS religion is true - what type of PROOF would be expected from the MUSLIM to prove that xtianity is wrong?
Absolute and completely verifiable and testable proof would be expected by the xtian - not just quotes from the Koran over and over again.
The problem is that the xtian in this case really has NO proof - I note he never has published ANYTHING approaching proof of anything. All he is doing is saying that he believes =- but actually gives NO good reason for anyone else to accept the statement. So - what he does is try to change the focus to the non-believer.
