Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: June 4, 2024, 5:47 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Is Evolution a science or a faith?
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith?
(August 5, 2014 at 1:16 pm)Chuck Wrote:
(August 5, 2014 at 11:14 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: Yes, but none of that means that evolution is based on the spontaneous appearance of life.


That's a little like saying gravity is not based on the earth going around the sun. No, but gravity does explain and predict the milieu of phenomenons which includes earth going around the sun, even had earth going around the sun not been the specific phenomenon that originally prompted the formulation of the theory of gravity.

The earth going around the sun is part of the information we used to formulate the theory of gravity. Abiogenesis is not part of the information we used to forumulate the theory of evolution. Those of us aware of the basics of evolution (pretty much everyone here but Harris) get that the most likely abiogenesis scenario involves evolution of self-replicating molecules. The details of abiogenesis are not the point, trying to get through Harris's thick skull that scientific abiogenesis does not have to be true for evolution to be true is.

(August 5, 2014 at 1:16 pm)Chuck Wrote: Spontaneous appearance of life, in the sense of raw materials of life gradually being assembled stage by stage by trial and error until some of the resulting assemblage crossed that artificial threshold we call life, is part of the milieu of biological phenomenon a which can be explained, even predicted, by the mechanics of evolution by natural selection, even if evolution was not initially formulated specifically to explain or predict the spontaneous appearance of life.

Well, if we ever run out of creationists to complain over dragging abiogenesis into an evolution conversation, we'll still have you.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
Reply



Messages In This Thread
Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - July 6, 2014 at 9:50 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Minimalist - July 6, 2014 at 9:59 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Jenny A - July 6, 2014 at 10:07 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Dystopia - July 7, 2014 at 8:57 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by LostLocke - July 7, 2014 at 11:48 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - July 26, 2014 at 11:11 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - July 26, 2014 at 10:15 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Esquilax - July 26, 2014 at 10:45 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Mister Agenda - July 28, 2014 at 12:13 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by paulpablo - July 6, 2014 at 10:10 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by ignoramus - July 6, 2014 at 10:21 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Mudhammam - July 6, 2014 at 10:32 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by alexwenzel - July 12, 2014 at 1:05 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Esquilax - July 12, 2014 at 1:13 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Esquilax - July 6, 2014 at 10:39 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Ryantology - July 6, 2014 at 10:49 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by CapnAwesome - July 6, 2014 at 10:50 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Jackalope - July 6, 2014 at 11:11 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by vorlon13 - July 6, 2014 at 11:34 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by bennyboy - July 7, 2014 at 12:11 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - July 26, 2014 at 10:56 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Aroura - July 7, 2014 at 3:07 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Cato - July 7, 2014 at 5:16 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Angrboda - July 7, 2014 at 1:32 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by pocaracas - July 7, 2014 at 5:14 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Ryantology - July 7, 2014 at 5:43 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by pocaracas - July 8, 2014 at 9:06 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Thumpalumpacus - August 3, 2014 at 11:50 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Natachan - July 7, 2014 at 5:43 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by vorlon13 - July 8, 2014 at 9:35 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by ManMachine - July 8, 2014 at 10:49 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - July 26, 2014 at 11:19 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Esquilax - July 26, 2014 at 11:35 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by FreeTony - July 8, 2014 at 11:47 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - July 26, 2014 at 11:21 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Mister Agenda - July 28, 2014 at 12:19 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Natachan - July 8, 2014 at 11:52 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Natachan - July 8, 2014 at 11:56 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Esquilax - July 8, 2014 at 11:56 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Whateverist - July 8, 2014 at 11:58 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - July 26, 2014 at 11:24 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Whateverist - July 26, 2014 at 1:17 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - July 27, 2014 at 11:33 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Jackalope - July 9, 2014 at 12:59 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by LastPoet - July 9, 2014 at 5:06 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by ignoramus - July 9, 2014 at 5:30 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Jackalope - July 9, 2014 at 7:03 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Whateverist - July 10, 2014 at 2:17 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Bad Writer - July 10, 2014 at 2:30 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Losty - July 10, 2014 at 2:37 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by pocaracas - July 10, 2014 at 3:30 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by ignoramus - July 10, 2014 at 4:00 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - July 26, 2014 at 11:29 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by No_God - July 10, 2014 at 1:07 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by ignoramus - July 10, 2014 at 6:02 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by pocaracas - July 10, 2014 at 6:38 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Bibliofagus - July 12, 2014 at 3:27 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - July 26, 2014 at 11:33 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by pocaracas - July 27, 2014 at 10:18 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Jenny A - July 12, 2014 at 12:57 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - July 26, 2014 at 11:35 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Esquilax - July 26, 2014 at 11:41 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Jenny A - July 26, 2014 at 5:31 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Minimalist - July 12, 2014 at 2:07 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Esquilax - July 12, 2014 at 2:45 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Polaris - July 12, 2014 at 9:51 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by bennyboy - July 12, 2014 at 11:19 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - July 26, 2014 at 11:41 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Jenny A - July 12, 2014 at 11:41 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by SteelCurtain - July 26, 2014 at 11:17 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by SteelCurtain - July 26, 2014 at 11:21 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Tobie - July 26, 2014 at 12:07 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - July 26, 2014 at 2:38 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - July 28, 2014 at 12:30 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Esquilax - July 26, 2014 at 2:58 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - July 28, 2014 at 12:58 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Esquilax - July 28, 2014 at 1:09 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - July 28, 2014 at 12:39 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Tobie - July 26, 2014 at 3:06 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - July 28, 2014 at 1:53 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Jenny A - July 28, 2014 at 2:11 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - July 28, 2014 at 1:35 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Cyberman - July 26, 2014 at 12:33 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - July 27, 2014 at 11:48 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Mister Agenda - July 28, 2014 at 12:42 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Cyberman - July 28, 2014 at 7:43 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Natachan - July 26, 2014 at 12:46 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - July 27, 2014 at 11:56 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Esquilax - July 28, 2014 at 12:46 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - July 28, 2014 at 11:42 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Esquilax - July 28, 2014 at 2:20 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Cyberman - July 26, 2014 at 2:43 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - July 28, 2014 at 12:13 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by bennyboy - July 28, 2014 at 12:14 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Mr.wizard - July 28, 2014 at 12:19 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - July 28, 2014 at 8:53 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by bennyboy - July 28, 2014 at 9:32 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Cyberman - July 28, 2014 at 8:34 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Cyberman - July 26, 2014 at 6:35 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Esquilax - July 27, 2014 at 3:47 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - July 28, 2014 at 2:40 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Esquilax - July 28, 2014 at 3:51 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by pocaracas - July 28, 2014 at 4:44 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by FreeTony - July 27, 2014 at 5:23 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Whateverist - July 27, 2014 at 9:35 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Natachan - July 27, 2014 at 3:48 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Polaris - July 27, 2014 at 5:36 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Bad Wolf - July 27, 2014 at 6:45 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Polaris - July 27, 2014 at 7:06 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Bad Wolf - July 27, 2014 at 8:14 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - July 28, 2014 at 6:55 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by StuW - July 28, 2014 at 7:30 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Bibliofagus - July 28, 2014 at 9:40 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by pocaracas - July 28, 2014 at 8:32 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Angrboda - July 28, 2014 at 12:10 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Natachan - July 28, 2014 at 12:18 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Bad Wolf - July 28, 2014 at 1:50 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Bibliofagus - July 29, 2014 at 11:04 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Minimalist - July 27, 2014 at 6:11 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - July 28, 2014 at 3:43 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by ignoramus - July 27, 2014 at 6:17 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - July 28, 2014 at 3:51 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Esquilax - July 28, 2014 at 4:12 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - July 28, 2014 at 1:56 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Bad Wolf - July 28, 2014 at 1:59 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Minimalist - July 27, 2014 at 7:07 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Polaris - July 27, 2014 at 7:09 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by bennyboy - July 27, 2014 at 7:27 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by ignoramus - July 27, 2014 at 8:25 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Polaris - July 28, 2014 at 7:58 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Mister Agenda - July 28, 2014 at 12:39 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Cyberman - July 27, 2014 at 7:13 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Natachan - July 27, 2014 at 7:24 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Mr.wizard - July 27, 2014 at 10:28 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - July 28, 2014 at 7:22 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Esquilax - July 28, 2014 at 7:30 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Mr.wizard - July 28, 2014 at 5:14 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - July 28, 2014 at 8:19 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by pocaracas - July 28, 2014 at 8:39 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Esquilax - July 28, 2014 at 8:53 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by FreeTony - July 28, 2014 at 8:37 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by FreeTony - July 28, 2014 at 8:41 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Natachan - July 28, 2014 at 11:48 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by paulpablo - July 28, 2014 at 12:05 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by downbeatplumb - July 28, 2014 at 12:33 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Bad Wolf - July 28, 2014 at 4:20 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by downbeatplumb - July 29, 2014 at 12:45 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by ManMachine - July 28, 2014 at 8:06 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Bad Wolf - July 29, 2014 at 12:46 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Brian37 - July 29, 2014 at 1:06 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Bad Wolf - July 29, 2014 at 1:39 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by bennyboy - July 29, 2014 at 11:26 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Losty - July 30, 2014 at 7:42 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Polaris - August 2, 2014 at 3:21 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Cato - August 2, 2014 at 4:52 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Polaris - August 2, 2014 at 7:44 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Esquilax - August 2, 2014 at 9:26 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Mr.wizard - August 3, 2014 at 9:27 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by archangle - August 2, 2014 at 8:56 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Duke Guilmon - August 2, 2014 at 9:23 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Cyberman - August 2, 2014 at 10:21 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by archangle - August 2, 2014 at 1:11 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Losty - August 2, 2014 at 3:07 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Cyberman - August 2, 2014 at 3:21 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by coldwx - August 2, 2014 at 4:48 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Cyberman - August 2, 2014 at 4:55 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Cyberman - August 2, 2014 at 7:46 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Polaris - August 2, 2014 at 8:02 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Cyberman - August 2, 2014 at 8:07 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Bad Wolf - August 3, 2014 at 4:51 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Esquilax - August 3, 2014 at 7:28 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by archangle - August 3, 2014 at 9:33 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Cyberman - August 3, 2014 at 10:18 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Whateverist - August 3, 2014 at 12:10 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - August 3, 2014 at 4:17 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by pocaracas - August 3, 2014 at 5:12 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Anomalocaris - August 3, 2014 at 7:18 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Esquilax - August 4, 2014 at 12:21 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Cyberman - August 4, 2014 at 9:01 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Mister Agenda - August 4, 2014 at 3:26 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Mister Agenda - August 4, 2014 at 4:33 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Anomalocaris - August 4, 2014 at 6:00 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Mister Agenda - August 5, 2014 at 11:14 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Anomalocaris - August 5, 2014 at 1:16 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Mister Agenda - August 6, 2014 at 12:20 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by popeyespappy - August 13, 2014 at 11:59 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Bibliofagus - August 14, 2014 at 4:08 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by StuW - August 3, 2014 at 4:29 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Whateverist - August 3, 2014 at 4:47 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Mr.wizard - August 3, 2014 at 5:16 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Ryantology - August 3, 2014 at 6:56 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Whateverist - August 3, 2014 at 5:41 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Dystopia - August 3, 2014 at 7:02 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Duke Guilmon - August 3, 2014 at 8:23 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Losty - August 3, 2014 at 8:26 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Duke Guilmon - August 4, 2014 at 10:31 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Sejanus - August 3, 2014 at 10:04 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Anomalocaris - August 3, 2014 at 11:38 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by ignoramus - August 3, 2014 at 11:13 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Bad Wolf - August 4, 2014 at 11:02 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by pocaracas - August 4, 2014 at 11:21 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Bad Wolf - August 4, 2014 at 2:14 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Anomalocaris - August 4, 2014 at 11:35 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Tonus - August 4, 2014 at 11:37 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Cyberman - August 4, 2014 at 11:45 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Oldm8 - August 4, 2014 at 6:08 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Brian37 - August 6, 2014 at 10:26 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Harris - August 17, 2014 at 2:58 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by pocaracas - August 17, 2014 at 5:27 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Esquilax - August 18, 2014 at 2:21 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by popeyespappy - August 14, 2014 at 1:25 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Eel_LahjicK - August 14, 2014 at 1:31 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Whateverist - August 14, 2014 at 3:51 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Cyberman - August 14, 2014 at 5:11 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Tonus - August 14, 2014 at 5:52 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by bennyboy - August 14, 2014 at 8:27 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by OfficerVajardian - August 14, 2014 at 10:26 am
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Bad Wolf - August 17, 2014 at 3:40 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Anomalocaris - August 17, 2014 at 3:52 pm
RE: Is Evolution a science or a faith? - by Anomalocaris - August 17, 2014 at 4:23 pm

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Plato's Epistemology: Is Faith a Valid Way to Know? vulcanlogician 10 1477 July 2, 2018 at 2:59 pm
Last Post: Succubus
  Symbolic Death and My Second Crisis of Faith InquiringMind 13 2736 September 21, 2016 at 9:43 pm
Last Post: InquiringMind
  Faith and achievement bennyboy 76 8591 August 17, 2016 at 12:02 pm
Last Post: Thumpalumpacus
  Faith in Science? Mudhammam 15 3342 October 30, 2014 at 3:11 pm
Last Post: TreeSapNest
  Blind faith and evolution Little Rik 654 223990 October 2, 2013 at 10:00 am
Last Post: Little Rik
  My Loss of faith has caused severe depression Aran 31 7236 June 21, 2013 at 2:41 am
Last Post: whatever76
  The difference between ethical atheism and nihlism is that ethical atheists have more faith jstrodel 104 37360 March 15, 2013 at 8:37 am
Last Post: The Reality Salesman01
  Please stop equating 'belief' and 'faith' Ryft 3 1985 January 4, 2011 at 10:36 am
Last Post: Edwardo Piet
  Faith in Humanity Violet 21 15964 March 17, 2010 at 5:00 pm
Last Post: Violet
  Adrian and I disagree on faith. leo-rcc 37 18972 February 14, 2010 at 1:13 pm
Last Post: tavarish



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)