Are Theists Illogical for Believing in God?

[The_Flying_Skeptic]

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TFS wrote: "Philosophers use 'possible worlds' in a variety of ways, but always with the objective of saying something about our world. Illogical worlds can tell us precisely nothing about our world. Thus its very difficult to see what philosophical use they could be put to. In view of this, its hardly surprising that theres no literature on the subject. What could the literature possibly be about?"

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I agree with you on this one. The "in all possible wolds" often used in philosophy differs from the "in all possible worlds" used in mathematics. The latter is short for "in all possible logical frameworks where a particular set X of axiomas holds" where in most cases X is specified, but not necessarily is about logical frameworks that apply to reality. The former is even more vague about what possible worlds are but strongly suggests they have something to do with reality. IMO this really is an attempt to make assertions on things one possibly cannot know. I side with Wittgenstein here: "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."

actually, caecilian wrote that i think but i agree with that too. define 'logical frameworks'. you keep saying that but we aren't talking about a framework here; at least i'm not talking about a framework. i'm just talking about logics. this whole branch is all a product of my response to someone saying that a universe is logical because of x property. i disagree that any universe should be considered logical based on a property unless that property is 'where we may formulate logical conclusions'. His or her choice of words was a product of confusing a reality with logics. confusing reality with logics is basically the theme of this thread (hence why i didn't try to start this topic in a different thread): atheists call theists illogical but that's not accurate since theists have made a conclusion based on premises in a logical manner just based on false premises in our opinion.

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the only way this example would be relevant to the discussion was if it was an example of a truth coming out of an illogical argument which it's not (alright that's confusing since the conclusion of an illogical argument may still be 'true' but maybe the next sentences will have more meaning). this has more to do with the best way to describe our reality 'our physics' (you're saying 'general relativity explains our reality better than euclidean geometry or Newtonian physics) than whether or not you should be able to form logical argument in all universes.

That's bull. I (and nobody here that I'm aware of) haven't asserted that truth ever arises from illogic, only that it is possible to construct incompatible different kinds of logic. And furthermore that it is a question which logic applies to our reality.

But my opinion in this is a rather conservative one. Hilary Putnam, not just some some dude with an opinion, even goes beyond that position and argues that logic is defined by what holds in reality not the other way 'round. In fact he argues for an empirical logic.

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. a truth technically can be concluded from an illogical argument (where the premises are contradictory but the conclusion is true. that happens right?). but isn't suggesting that a universe is illogical suggesting that a 'truth' can arise from illogic? how would a thinking entity come to a truth about that universe if not by logics? or how would a thinking entity derive a truth in a universe from illogic? how could a thinking entity even exist in a universe where logics doesn't exist? empiricism is a whole other matter that still has nothing to do with simply logics. I'm sure that Hilary Putnam has not thought to argue about logics in terms of many universes. Maybe someone should email him and ask him if he thinks logics or even empirical logics would apply to any thinking agent or agent capable of logics of any universe. I bet he'll say 'yes' . i keep straying from my initial purpose of this whole argument: is there any reason to believe an illogical universe could exist? does the term 'illogical universe' have any meaning at all? if there is no reason to believe an illogical universe may exist and no meaning in the term 'illogical universe', saying a universe is logical becomes redundant.