(June 25, 2010 at 7:44 pm)remza Wrote: I was attempting to make a related point regarding the idea of theists being illogical but also hinting at the scope/limits of science. Theists will claim that there are certain questions which unaided reason cannot answer and to answer them we need another source of information - revelation from God, to understand and evaluate which, reason is essential.The first questions to ask are "what can we know at all?" and "how can knowledge, if it arises, be shared?". Observe that your claim that god exists and we should share that view on basis of your revelation touches on both these questions.
I.e.
1) Data from nature
2) Data from revelation
Both require reason to understand, so revelation cannot be opposed to reason.
In common practice where humans share information certain principles have emerged in modern society that were less developed or plain absent in ancient times like that of Jesus. For instance, in situations where two or more parties have to rely on the validity of shared information, transparancy of that information must somehow be ensured. Transparancy meaning that the path from the information to the source of it is traceable unambiguously. Another principle is that the information is verifiable from independent sources. In theistic revelation there's no transparancy, no verifiability and no public access, you ask us to rely solely on your alleged revelation from your first experience. You ask us to rely on anecdotal evidence.
I ask you in all earnest to answer me this: Have you ever, in prayer or otherwise, heard god speaking directly at you where it was possible for you to absolutely 100% confirm that it was god himself? If so I would like to know how you did that. How did you confirm that what you heard was from an entity that can be 100% identified as your god? How did you rule out 100% positively the following possibilities:
1) that what you heard arose from your own thought
2) that what you heard was not a false god pretending he was your expected god
I mean do you guys exchange encrypted communication certificates to authenticate the parties in communication by a prescribed exchange protocol?
"I'm like a rabbit suddenly trapped, in the blinding headlights of vacuous crap" - Tim Minchin in "Storm"
Christianity is perfect bullshit, christians are not - Purple Rabbit, honouring CS Lewis
Faith is illogical - fr0d0
Christianity is perfect bullshit, christians are not - Purple Rabbit, honouring CS Lewis
Faith is illogical - fr0d0