Dr. Doug Graham (80-10-10 raw vegan)

[miniboes]

With additional supplements from decidely non-vegan sources, sure.

Name me one nutrient that I need and I cannot get a vegan supplement for.

If it's a need that I do so- so be it. I can't do anything about my needs. I think you're leaving out some fairly important details about food production here to reduce meat to an issue of pleasure or convenience.

Which details?

Let's take it one step further; if you did not only kill a man here and there, but you breed billions upon billions of humans to exploit them, feed them obese and then kill them in the end, what kind of person are you?

Inhumane, but am I doing this, and does this need to be done to produce livestock? Nope, and nope.

You're paying people to do these things, albeit not to humans but animals that suffer just as much. You know, Hitler didn't kill Jews personally, he paid people to do it, it doesn't make a difference ethically.

Yup, by thoroughly integrating livestock production into our overall food production policies and phasing out unsustainable and deleterious oil-to-food schemes.

How would that reduce suffering?

Sounds shitty - definitely not best practice (and probably costs alot of money in lost efficiency). You can argue against poor practice all day long - I'm right there with you.

Yet you pay to support these practices.

Here's the problem with humane treatment; even if you treat the animals nicely (which is not happening in the world I live in), you should not treat them as property. It's slavery still.

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That's right, no one knows what causes dementia, let alone alzheimers. It's theorised to be preventable, but it's not curable.

Well, actually, there's a pretty good theory. In a brain with Alzheimer's plaques of iron, copper and zinc are found that promote free radicals, and so the oxidation of the brain leading to memory loss. Also, if we can prevent it we no longer have a need to cure it.

Yes, it's changed a lot. We only found out about the ghrelin and leptin hormones, for instance, in the mid 90's; we didn't know what cholesterol was for in 1983; we thought that saturated fat was bad and in fact the "experts at the time" recommended reducing daily fat by around 1/4th, which resulted in more people eating more grains and more refined sugars. And in 1983 there was only a very rudimentary understanding of B12 and B12 deficiency.

I meant to ask if our bodies actually changed, as in our brains and blood vessels and lungs. Perhaps I should have phrased that differently, sorry.

Unfortunately, I don't have time to read the full text. However, some people have lower B12 levels without problem, not everyone "needs" B12 levels higher than 170 pg/ml, just like some people have a BMI of 18 naturally without problem and would not actually be underweight for them. Nothing about the study suggests the cohorts were exclusively meat eaters?

Although it might not be a problem it contradicts your notion that eating meat is a sufficient source of b12. I don't know what makes you convinced that it is not a problem in this 17% but it is a problem in vegans.

The only difference between saturated fats and unsaturated fats is the fact that (a) saturated fats are not considered essential (i.e. we can synthesise them), but at least least one unsaturated fatty acid is essential (meaning we can't create it from anabolic metabolism), and (b) that palmitic acid in the diet is thought to raise blood cholesterol levels, and linoleic acid does the opposite.

I'll come back on this later, little time to do research right now.

And dietary cholesterol has no direct effect on blood cholesterol levels.

That's just not true.
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/44/2/299.long

Meat and dairy only contain trace amounts of trans fat. I believe you mostly get it in vegetable oil since it's an artificial product (which is why I typically don't use vegetable oil, and prefer the natural alternative of olive oil).

Yes, trans fats are found in vegetable oils because through hydrogenation the vegetable fats are rearranged in a way that makes them behave more like animal fats. Half of our trans fat intake still comes from animal products though (Link). According to the official USDA nutrient database cheese, milk, yoghurt, beef and chicken contain 1 to 5% trans fats (Link). Some non-hydrogenated vegetable oils also have some, but that's from 0,1 to 0,5. Are a few grams a problem? Well, as any increase in trans fat intake increases your risk of CVD the only safe intake seems to be 0 (Link).

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Cows are not humans. They are animals, and not very intelligent ones at that.

How is that relevant?

We are designed to eat meat.

How did you determine that and how is that relevant?

Some people can go a very long time without any problems without eating meat, but other people cannot. 85% of people in the USA who go vegetarian ultimately return to eating meat after an average of nine years (see Psychology Today). The main reason, given by 35% of those who return to eating meat, is for their health.

I do not find what 35% of 85% of vegetarians think very compelling in any sense.

One example is Alex Jamieson. She seese herself as a "holistic health counsellor", and is a proponent for improving your health through diet, especially veganisim. Her approach has always been moderate - to tell her clients to do what is right for their bodies. Unlike other "holistic health" nut-cases who believe all medications are bad, etc (e.g. Dr Doug Graham), and that all ailments can be healed though the diet. She notes that it was very good for her body for a long time, that it did heal her, but that after 13 years she started having problems. Her periods stopped, and other health problems arose, she started craving meat which she had not craved in a very long time. Ultimately she found out that she needed to return to eating meat for her health and well-being.

I do not find anecdotal evidence very compelling either.

Because their effect on the so-called "greenhouse effect" is limited.

Wow, I thought only the religious made that claim. This report from the IPCC makes clear that if we want to avoid irreversible impacts on our planet we may need to reduce our emissions to zero.

That's simply not true. Some people find veganisim healthy for them for some length of time, I'm aware of no data that suggests that veganisim is healthy for anyone for their whole lives, and if you bothered to check the example I gave (trollsneedhugs on youtube), you'd see that someone raised vegetarian from an early age developed a number of very serious medical conditions and could not heal as a vegan no matter what he tried. He also could not put on any muscle. There are at least 4 or 5 videos where he talks about his ailments in detail well prior to eating meat (most over a year earlier).

Again, I am not interested in anecdotal evidence.