“The Problem of Evil” in atheism and in Islam

[Chas]

Harris Wrote: I also wonder what atheism has to do with “The Problem of Evil?” Yet, people like Dr Russell frequently use it to disprove the existence of God.

Chas Wrote: Then you neither understand The Problem of Evil nor the argument.

Have you read my Article “The Problem of Evil in atheism and in Islam” if not then read it before you give any opinion about my understanding.

http://atheistforums.org/thread-30896.html

I read that thread and what it shows is that you have an incorrect understanding of evolution and an incorrect understanding of the problem of evil. The fact of evil demonstrates the non-existence of a good god.

Harris Wrote: Sure! Genes can replicate and mutate and that is the main cause of diverse looks of the same species. However, there is no scientific evidence that one type of species can develop into another by means of “increase in information content over evolution.” Replication and mutation do not increase the information in the genome. If someone is saying that “information content increase over evolution,” then he is fooling you.

Chas Wrote: Mutation is a change to the existing information - that is new information.

You are fooling yourself.

Green and Red are two distinct facts. When you see at Green Apple and at Red apple that means you are looking at different variants of apple. Although Green and Red equivalently applicable on tomato but in no sense apple is tomato. Likewise when you are looking at a white man and at a black man that means you are looking at human beings not at monkey. Variation in the outlook does not mean change in the principle structure of a particular type.

If you think mutation and replication is the cause of transforming one type of living being into another then bring proper scientific evidence for that. For example, bring proper scientific reasoning on how an ape transformed into human. Your example should be testable and observable. I would not mind if you would take some help from professional geneticists for that purpose. However, remember the words of Dawkins:

“Almost all of evolution happened way back in the past, WHICH MAKES IT HARD TO STUDY DETAILS. But we can use the “LENGTH OF BOOK” THOUGHT-EXPERIMENT to agree upon what it would mean to ask the question whether information content increases over evolution, IF ONLY WE HAD ANCESTRAL ANIMALS TO LOOK AT.

The answer in practice is COMPLICATED and CONTROVERSIAL, all bound up with a vigorous debate over whether evolution is, in general, progressive. I am one of those associated with a LIMITED FORM of yes answer.”

http://www.skeptics.com.au/publications/...challenge/

That had little or nothing to do with my statement. In what sense evolution might be progressive has what to do with the question of information?

First demonstrate God's existence, then show how you know its attributes so well.

Logically, nothingness cannot be expressed in any logical form because there is no way in which nothingness can be defined in terms of being. The universe can only function because it is not nothingness. Since pure nothingness is an impossibility, there never was a time when Being did not exist. In short, Being is eternal. Thus, Being possesses the divine attributes of necessity, eternity, omnipresence, and infinity. Consequently, Being is God Himself.

How I know about the attributes of God so Well, the answer is Quran. Quran provides all necessary information about God.

Quran is the only scripture in the world, which has the largest number of memorizers. No one in the world was able to corrupt Quran in last 1400 years.

Do they not consider the Qur an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy.
An Nisaa (4)
-Verse 82-

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message (Quran); and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
Al Hijr (15)
-Verse 9-

If somehow, all copies of Quran get lost then in a matter of only few hours, Muslims would reprint exact original Quran with the help of millions of people who have Quran in their memories (word-by-word and dot by dot without any discrepancies).

People had successfully corrupted all previous scriptures by using their intellect due to their wishful thinking and lustful desires. Now the same human intellect is guarding Quran against any corruption. Such an intellectual shield cannot be designed and managed by any human. Quran is a living miracle. Quran is the Word of God.

I hope I have given you logical proof about the existence of God and a hint about Quran is a word of God.

No, you have failed to provide a logical proof. And the Quran is just another book of myth by another little tribe in a little desert.

Harris Wrote: Prophet Mohammad died around 1,400 years ago but Islam is continuously spreading around the world with success even today. After the deaths of Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Mao the spread of communism and atheism falls drastically. So what happens to communism and atheism?

Atheism is not the same thing as communism. Where do you people get this idea?

Chas Wrote: Except for the fact that there are increasing numbers of atheists. So, there's that.

After the fall of Soviet Union, more than 60% of atheists dramatically turned their faces to churches, mosques, and synagogues in former Soviet Republics including Russia and Baltic countries. Huge number of former atheists converted into believers of God with the fall of Soviet Union.

You have evidence that these people were ever atheists? Please provide it.

You are saying atheism is spreading go and study about what is happening in Eastern and most part of Western Europe including UK and Germany.

The only increase in religion is the tiny fraction of Muslims.

Harris Wrote: If you prove that human intellect is man made by the use of which man is making science then I have no trouble in accepting that science is manmade.

Chas Wrote: That was incoherent. Human intellect evolved.

If you think that “human intellect evolved,” perhaps by “blind and unguided natural selection” then does that give any proof that human intellect is manmade?

What? Your question makes no sense.

I don't much give a rat's ass what a non-scientific philosopher says about that. No one says the mind is identical to the brain - that's your straw man.

There is no evidence that the mind is anywhere but in the brain.

If I give piece of my physical brain to you then do you think you will get piece of my thoughts with that?

You are confused about what I said. The mind is not the brain, the mind is an emergent property of the brain.

Harris Wrote: So it is clear that the mind cannot be identical to the brain. If that identity held, then every brain state would be mental, which is obviously false. But what is wrong with holding the converse, namely, that every mental state is a brain state?

I would agree that every mental state is a brain state.

If every mental state is a brain state, then every belief is a brain state. But beliefs have properties that brain states cannot have. One is the property of being either true or false; another is intentionality. So no belief is a brain state.

You keep confusing things and properties of things.

Chas Wrote: Straw man. Unsupported assertions.

You have improperly rejected my reasoning by declaring it imprecise. Better if you give correct counter argument instead of rejecting abstractly.

Natural selection was Darwin's term for the mindless algorithm of differential reproductive success. There is no entity doing any selecting.

What is “MINDLESS ALGORITHM?”

A natural process.

Harris Wrote: Now I am sorry that I am giving you such questions knowingly that you do not have a biological background but your explanations are not giving me any options than to ask you these questions.

I have a great deal of knowledge about biology, particularly evolution, so ask away.

Chas Wrote: You have no clear understanding of evolution, so you are in no position to judge.

If the foundation of evolution is MINDLESS ALGORITHM then for sure I do not have clear scientific facts on evolution.

I agree that you do not understand evolution.
Evolution occurs when there is imperfect replication of replicators. Some will have more success at replicating.

Harris Wrote: You are right on spot in saying that Natural Selection is some kind of blind god. The reason behind this assumption is that there no scientifically discernible explanation for Natural Selection.

Chas Wrote: See above where I describe precisely what it is.

You mean precise scientific explanation of evolution is MINDLESS ALGORITHM.

Try reading the words again. Natural selection means the differential reproductive success of replicators.

Note: I never said that natural selection is a blind god - please do not attribute words that I did not use.

It isn't selecting anything, there is no selection being made by any being, creature or entity.

As I said before no I don't have a background in biology but I do read up about nature in a non scientific way and can relate that to some scientific information I know about.

Natural selection, to my limited understanding of biology, is like a process of elimination, no one is selecting anything.

Animals with beneficial traits bred into them by their parents live and those with none beneficial traits die without breeding.

This isn't the only type of selection though because there's also sexual selection, in which case the traits which evolve due to sexual selection won't have many benefits against predators or benefits in gaining food but just purely give the creature more mating success.

Again the same example I used last time, this is an explanation for the flightless birds on isolated islands, they didn't need to fly, flying takes up a lot of energy, they had no predators on land so they lost the use of flight.

If the selection had been by some all knowing entity, it would have told the birds to carry on flying because there are predators out there on other islands that will soon come and get them.

All that you have explained sounds like a myth.

That was a good explanation of evolution. Are you trying not to understand?