What were Jesus and early Christians like?

[watchamadoodle]

Further, in the mid 3d century a xtian writer named Origen wrote a work called Contra Celsus in which he specifically referred to Book XVIII of Antiquities of the Jews and correctly noted the John the Baptist reference BUT HAS NOTHING TO SAY ABOUT THE TF AT ALL. This, in spite of the fact that it would have clinched the point he was trying to make.

That seems like a good reason to assume the TF is a complete forgery. I wonder why Geza Vermes believed it to be only a partial forgery? I assume he must have been aware of the argument you mentioned unless it is very new.

D-P has already trashed the "Jamesian reference" and while we disagree slightly about the nature of the forgery - I find it a rather innocent mistake by a well-meaning scribe - Jesus Bar Damneus is named at the end.

So you think the scribal error was to write "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James" instead of "James Bar Damneus"?

I have a hard time imagining that Damneus had two sons - one of them heretical enough to stone and the other orthodox enough to be high priest. Doesn't that sound unlikely?

I haven't studied this enough to have a strong opinion of my own, so I feel more comfortable accepting the view of the majority. It might be wrong of course.

BTW, We don't need to get hung-up on the mythical/historical Jesus issue. We all agree there were early Christians, and that is also an interesting discussion.

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(2) John the Baptist

...is a curious character. Supposedly, his whole ministry was a warm-up act for Jesus. He even supposedly told his followers this on no uncertain terms. Yet, strangely, Josephus tells us that JtB had a successful ministry with no reference to it just being a warm-up act for someone else. His followers considered JtB to be the messiah and still do to this day. How odd he told them to follow Jesus and they just didn't get the memo.

...or maybe the whole thing about him kneeling before Jesus is just a propaganda piece the Christians made up about their arch rival at the time. Kind of like what the Muslims would later do with Jesus.

So what were the two Jewish sects like that produced John the Baptist and the Early Christians?