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What were Jesus and early Christians like?
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like?
Oh, the question of what Jesus was doing in the days after the baptism is just the tip of the iceberg. There's a reason Christians refer to the first three Gospels as "Synoptic", acknowledging that John sits oddly along side of them.

OK, let's assume you're correct that John was telling a retrospective of what happened earlier. This would make Jesus' appearance at least a second one, presumably after the 40 days in the wilderness but before JtB was put into prison. Jesus begins to gather disciples and starts his ministry. Not only does Jesus not wait for JtB to be put away before he starts his ministry, he starts a rival baptism business and beats JtB at his own game.

The Gospel of John Wrote:3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
3:23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
3:24 For John was not yet cast into prison.
...(JtB speaks about "he must increase but I must decrease")...
4:1 When therefore the LORD knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,

Yet when I read the Synoptic Gospel accounts, Jesus is baptized, Jesus goes into the Wilderness, JtB is thrown into prison, Jesus starts his ministry. He doesn't gather disciples until after JtB was out of the picture.

The Gospel of Mark Wrote:1:13 And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.
1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, ... 1:16 Now as he walked by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew his brother casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.
1:17 And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.

The Gospel of Matthew Wrote:4:11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him. 4:12 Now when Jesus had heard that John was cast into prison, he departed into Galilee; ... 4:18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.
4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

The Gospel of Luke Wrote:4:13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.
4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.

So in your retcon of John chapter 1, when did JtB have the opportunity to have his second meeting with Jesus when he says "behold the lamb of God"? When did he have the opportunity to baptize along side Jesus at Salim? In the Synoptic Gospels, Jesus gets back from the Wilderness and hears that JtB was put into prison. You'll probably say that some time passed between Jesus' return from the Wilderness and the imprisonment of JtB, long enough to allow for that second meeting, but even so, Jesus in the Synoptics doesn't start his ministry or gather the disciples Simon and Andrew until after JtB was put away.

Now all of this makes sense if you read the Gospels not as a consistent timeline but a work of fiction that gets better with the telling.

John was clearly written much later than the other Gospels, evidenced not just by the more theologically advanced Jesus who proclaims himself one with his father but also by how "the Jews" are constantly referred to as a separate and rival religion. The Synoptics write of "the priests", "scribes" or "pharisees", apparently written at a time when the emerging Christian sect had not yet fully split off into its own.

JtB's nature also changes in John's Gospel. In history, JtB had his own following that clearly dwarfed the one of Jesus, as evident by how his ministry gets a mention in history while Jesus' did not. Strangely, there was no mention of JtB being a warm-up act for anyone to come and his followers continued to be rivals to the early Christians. The first three Gospels were written to assimilate JtB, have him kneel before Jesus and then get out of the way so Jesus could take center stage. However, in John's Gospel, JtB is so insignificant and submissive that there is no need for him to get out of the way. He remains on the stage so Jesus can show how awesome he his by beating him at his own game, racking up more baptisms with JtB as his cheer leader.

So even granting your whole apology that JtB was offering testimony of an earlier meeting, the Synoptic Gospels don't allow for Jesus to start his ministry or gather disciples prior to JtB's arrest and hence, the two different stories still fail to mesh.

(March 5, 2015 at 1:40 am)Godschild Wrote: This is a show of your intellect. Prove I started from a conclusion, I like all others was not born a believer.
Correct. You were indoctrinated to believe. Apologetics, by definition, is the art of defending the faith. Faith, by definition, is belief without evidence and against all evidence. You start with the faith, meaning you have no evidence, and then practice apologetics, which is looking for reasons to believe the things you already believe by a process of faith. And the great thing about this fallacious approach to defending the faith is no matter what you believe, you can always find reasons to believe it by selectively looking.

This is not just my opinion. This is the definition of faith and the definition of apologetics, the defense of the faith.

So it is pure psychological projection when you accuse skeptics who simply pick up the Bible and read what is there with a critical mind (the same critical mind by which you would read anyone else's sacred scriptures) of reading the Bible with an agenda. Skepticism is not an agenda. Apologetics, by definition, is.
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"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
...      -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
...       -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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Messages In This Thread
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by abaris - February 27, 2015 at 8:26 pm
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by vorlon13 - February 27, 2015 at 11:48 pm
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by Mudhammam - February 27, 2015 at 11:58 pm
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by vorlon13 - February 28, 2015 at 12:04 am
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by Mudhammam - February 28, 2015 at 12:08 am
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by vorlon13 - February 28, 2015 at 12:13 am
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by vorlon13 - February 28, 2015 at 12:44 pm
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by Godschild - February 28, 2015 at 5:20 pm
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by abaris - February 28, 2015 at 5:22 pm
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by Drich - March 3, 2015 at 10:03 am
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by Drich - March 4, 2015 at 10:37 am
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by Drich - March 4, 2015 at 12:40 pm
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by DeistPaladin - March 5, 2015 at 7:05 am
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by Nope - March 1, 2015 at 11:12 am
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by Drich - March 1, 2015 at 12:02 pm
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by Drich - March 1, 2015 at 10:05 pm
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by Drich - March 1, 2015 at 10:40 pm
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by Drich - March 2, 2015 at 10:28 am
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by Drich - March 4, 2015 at 12:37 pm
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by Drich - March 6, 2015 at 12:55 am
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by Cato - March 5, 2015 at 12:28 am
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by Drich - March 4, 2015 at 12:41 pm
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by Drich - March 4, 2015 at 12:49 pm
What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by KUSA - March 4, 2015 at 5:29 pm
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by Pizza - March 13, 2015 at 8:26 pm
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by Pizza - March 13, 2015 at 7:10 pm
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by Pizza - March 13, 2015 at 8:51 pm
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by Pizza - March 13, 2015 at 8:45 pm
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by Pizza - March 13, 2015 at 8:54 pm
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by Pizza - March 13, 2015 at 9:56 pm
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by Pizza - March 13, 2015 at 10:30 pm
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by Pizza - March 14, 2015 at 12:52 am
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by Pizza - March 15, 2015 at 2:32 am
RE: What were Jesus and early Christians like? - by Pizza - March 15, 2015 at 10:32 pm

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