The argument against God

[Eilonnwy]

It came to me as I was sitting around. I havn't really ever heard a really convincing argument against the existence of a god. I was intreaged and thought the best place to come in my search was an atheist forum. So, anyone got any good ones?

By the way, I do belive in a god, just keeping an open mind.

First and foremost we need to clarify two issues, one is the god you're proposing we argue against (because the definitions change depending on the person), and the other is what atheism really is so you can grasp where some people are coming from.

If you believe in an ethereal "God is love", a supernatural ethereal being beyond our knowledge, then honestly it's pretty hard, in fact probably impossible to argue against it becuase you've essentially definied it to be something that goes beyond our knowledge and how can we argue for or against such a god? The definition is meaningless so I throw it out.

If you're talking about a god who created the world in 6 days, and answers prayers, sent down his son to be crucified God (Or didn't and you're still waiting for that messiah....or think Jesus was a prophet and Muhammed is the guy to go by) we can have a meaningful discussion about the topic.

Let's also clarify that atheism is a lack of believe in god. You do not need to have proof against god to not believe in god. You just need to not accept the claim there is a god. For example if you say you have an invisible fairy on your shoulder the default position is to not accept the claim that that you have that said fairy. You have no proof for the fairy, and even though I can't disprove it (because it's invisible) I'm still not going to accept the claim and reasonably say that it's not there until such time as the fairy demonstrates it's presence. Substitute fairy for God and you have weak atheism or agnostic atheism where you don't know, but you stick with the natural default position of until you prove it, I'm not believing. (That takes care of the ethereal supernatural nonsense of the first definition of god.)

Then there's strong atheism where you asset there is no god. I am strong atheist in the since that I believe/know to the degree I can possibly know anything, that there is no God and I apply that believe or know that there is no Abrahamic or Judeo-Christian God (Or Greek Pantheon, Norse Gods, etc...) A God of the bible so to speak. An interveneing, answers prayers, you go to heaven, created the world in 6 days kind of god. If we want to use analogies again, we're can compare it to saying you have 10 dollars in your wallet. You can prove you have ten dollars in your wallet because there are testable physical attributes about those ten dollars. I'm going to mention some stuff off hand because it's impossible to get down and dirty without writing a book (But I'm going to suggest one afterwards)

We have tested prayer and studies have shown it has no scientifically sustainable results. Everytime prayer has been tested it has failed. You can go find those studies. Similarly, an intercessory god violates the free will hypothesis becuase the instant god intercedes on someone's behalf they violate free will.

How about created the world in 6 days? Evolution destroys that attribute.

How about Jesus? There are no contemporary proofs of Jesus. There is nothing outside the bible and gnostic gospels that talk about Jesus and they were written at least 40 years after his supposed death. Oh and don't forget that Jesus existed to forgive the sins of two imaginary people (Adam and Eve) who ate forbidden fruit from a tree thanks to a talking snake (ANd God actually said the tree would kill them, the snake said it would give them knowledge...wow the snake actually told the truth) and because of that sin we were all denied heaven, so our omnipresent god (who should have seen this shit coming) decided to send his son down (Who is really him) as a human to be brutally sacrificed (Because God lieks the scent of blood) to create a loophole in the rules that he created so we would be forgiven sins we actually didn't committ and have good reason to believe Adam and Eve never existed anyway. Wow, sounds awesome.

The bible is full of amazing contradictions.

How about an afterlife? There is no scientific proof that any afterlife exists. Near death experiences can be explained by reactions of dying brain. (All near death experiences surprisingly correlate with the religion of the person experiencing it, hmmm)

Science practically destroys any notion of that God, and the information is everywhere if you look ahrd enough. I couldn't possibly provide all the evidence because even I don't know everything and I don't have the time to do so.

This forums book club is going to read Victor Stenger's God: The Failed Hypothesis for February. I've heard lot's of reviews about it, the book essentially focuses on how science destroys the notion of God, so if you're genuinely interested in arguments against god, pick up a copy.
-_^

I hope you don't think I'm being to glib in my answer, because it's a simple question with a gargantuan answer that honestly depends on your definition of god. Just remember that an atheist DOESN'T actually have to provide proof for a god. Their position is a logical default position of negative until proven otherwise. (And unless you're really gullible, I'm sure you naturally apply that logic to a lot of other things like maybe UFO sightings or bigfoot) If you postulate a god theory you HAVE to substiant it with proof. So let me ask you, what are your arguments for god?