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Proof of God
RE: Proof of God
(May 6, 2015 at 11:45 pm)Harris Wrote: Rene Descartes has explained this fact in his third Meditation roughly like this:

1. We have ideas of many things.
2. These ideas must arise either from ourselves or from things outside us.
3. One of the ideas we have is the idea of God—an infinite, all-perfect being.
4. This idea could not have been caused by ourselves, because we know ourselves to be limited and imperfect, and no effect can be greater than its cause.
5. Therefore, the idea must have been caused by something outside us, which has nothing less than the qualities contained in the idea of God.
6. But only God himself has those qualities.
7. Therefore, God himself must be the cause of the idea we have of him.
8. Therefore, God exists.

Trusting this is what Descartes argued, we can have at it beginning with premise (2), which introduces an artificial dichotomy. Why does the source of an idea have to be either inside or outside ourselves? Why can't it arise from a response we have to an outside thing, so that both inside and outside are involved? If we've passed on (2), then the conclusion in (4) itself adds a new premise, that no effect can be greater than its cause. Yet we have abundant examples of effects (Atlantic hurricanes) which are much greater than their initial causes (tropical waves over the Cape Verde Islands). We could add the sun heating ocean water as an additional cause and say that the energy dissipated by an effect cannot exceed the energy supplied by all its causes, to rescue (4). But once we get to (5), we must ask why the idea of God must have either the energy of God or some "greatness of qualities" he mentions there which God may have. The idea is not the thing idealized. I'm seeing a bit of Jello quaking here.

I'm pretty hip to God, but arguments along various lines-cosmological, ontological, first cause, and so on-have been running for centuries with no positive results. I don't believe the existence of God can be proved using any of the commonly accepted tools for reasoning. If things like quantum foams and inflationary epochs likewise are purely speculative, at least they can be analyzed within the rubrics of mathematical physics and some relation between them and the present state of the universe be derived and thus rendered plausible.

I propose that we accept God without proof. Perhaps based on the age-old prevalence of religious beliefs. I've heard the story that gods were invented to fill roles of agency for the frightening unknown, i.e. a god of storms to account for lightning, which we then conveniently know is caused by electrostatic discharges. I don't really buy that early peoples were so fearful as we suppose; they bravely confronted things much worse than summer thundershowers. In general, when humans coin a noun for something and begin talking about it, they are responding to some aspect of reality, not just to a mass delusion. So I accept that religious belief is a response to something real. However, I'm not foolish enough to think this constitutes an existence proof.
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Messages In This Thread
Proof of God - by Harris - February 27, 2015 at 1:57 am
RE: Proof of God - by Exian - February 27, 2015 at 2:00 am
RE: Proof of God - by Jacob(smooth) - February 27, 2015 at 2:20 am
RE: Proof of God - by Ravenshire - March 14, 2015 at 4:46 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - March 18, 2015 at 11:09 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - March 18, 2015 at 1:04 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Mister Agenda - March 18, 2015 at 1:27 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Ravenshire - March 20, 2015 at 6:42 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - February 27, 2015 at 2:16 am
RE: Proof of God - by Neo-Scholastic - April 21, 2015 at 12:23 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Surgenator - April 21, 2015 at 1:07 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - April 22, 2015 at 1:44 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Surgenator - April 22, 2015 at 3:41 pm
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 22, 2015 at 4:45 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - April 25, 2015 at 2:38 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 25, 2015 at 3:37 am
RE: Proof of God - by Mudhammam - April 25, 2015 at 4:15 am
RE: Proof of God - by Neo-Scholastic - April 25, 2015 at 10:06 am
RE: Proof of God - by Mudhammam - April 25, 2015 at 1:39 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - April 27, 2015 at 6:57 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 27, 2015 at 9:09 am
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - May 2, 2015 at 8:56 am
RE: Proof of God - by downbeatplumb - May 2, 2015 at 11:34 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - May 3, 2015 at 1:40 am
RE: Proof of God - by Neo-Scholastic - May 2, 2015 at 10:56 am
RE: Proof of God - by LostLocke - May 3, 2015 at 11:54 am
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - April 25, 2015 at 4:34 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - April 22, 2015 at 5:16 pm
RE: Proof of God - by downbeatplumb - April 24, 2015 at 1:48 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Neo-Scholastic - April 24, 2015 at 8:34 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - April 24, 2015 at 8:46 am
RE: Proof of God - by Neo-Scholastic - April 24, 2015 at 9:14 am
RE: Proof of God - by Chas - April 24, 2015 at 8:50 am
RE: Proof of God - by Surgenator - April 24, 2015 at 12:36 pm
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - February 27, 2015 at 2:38 am
RE: Proof of God - by Exian - February 27, 2015 at 2:46 am
RE: Proof of God - by JesusHChrist - February 27, 2015 at 2:44 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - February 27, 2015 at 2:50 am
RE: Proof of God - by Aoi Magi - February 27, 2015 at 2:55 am
RE: Proof of God - by Exian - February 27, 2015 at 3:07 am
RE: Proof of God - by Thumpalumpacus - February 27, 2015 at 3:13 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - February 27, 2015 at 3:56 am
RE: Proof of God - by Fidel_Castronaut - February 27, 2015 at 4:14 am
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - February 27, 2015 at 4:23 am
RE: Proof of God - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - February 27, 2015 at 6:26 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - February 27, 2015 at 6:39 am
RE: Proof of God - by Homeless Nutter - February 27, 2015 at 6:53 am
RE: Proof of God - by Dystopia - February 27, 2015 at 7:20 am
RE: Proof of God - by paulpablo - February 27, 2015 at 7:45 am
RE: Proof of God - by Jacob(smooth) - February 27, 2015 at 8:14 am
RE: Proof of God - by Ben Davis - February 27, 2015 at 8:57 am
RE: Proof of God - by Brian37 - February 27, 2015 at 9:09 am
RE: Proof of God - by Norman Humann - February 27, 2015 at 10:49 am
RE: Proof of God - by Esquilax - February 27, 2015 at 11:05 am
RE: Proof of God - by Neo-Scholastic - February 27, 2015 at 8:59 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - February 27, 2015 at 9:55 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Esquilax - February 27, 2015 at 10:20 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - March 3, 2015 at 9:50 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - March 3, 2015 at 10:00 am
RE: Proof of God - by Fidel_Castronaut - March 3, 2015 at 4:07 pm
RE: Proof of God - by TheRealJoeFish - March 3, 2015 at 10:33 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - March 3, 2015 at 10:33 am
RE: Proof of God - by Ben Davis - March 3, 2015 at 11:31 am
RE: Proof of God - by Thumpalumpacus - March 3, 2015 at 12:19 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Esquilax - March 3, 2015 at 12:36 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - March 10, 2015 at 7:39 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - March 10, 2015 at 8:31 am
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - March 14, 2015 at 2:36 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - March 14, 2015 at 5:38 am
RE: Proof of God - by downbeatplumb - March 3, 2015 at 2:03 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Fidel_Castronaut - March 4, 2015 at 6:19 am
RE: Proof of God - by paulpablo - March 14, 2015 at 3:04 am
RE: Proof of God - by Whateverist - March 14, 2015 at 8:45 am
RE: Proof of God - by abaris - March 14, 2015 at 9:37 am
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - February 27, 2015 at 3:25 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Minimalist - February 27, 2015 at 9:58 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Homeless Nutter - February 28, 2015 at 7:17 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - February 28, 2015 at 9:33 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 3, 2015 at 9:59 am
RE: Proof of God - by FatAndFaithless - March 3, 2015 at 10:21 am
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - March 3, 2015 at 11:53 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 3, 2015 at 10:33 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 3, 2015 at 12:00 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Whateverist - March 3, 2015 at 12:03 pm
RE: Proof of God - by The Valkyrie - March 3, 2015 at 2:04 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Exian - March 3, 2015 at 5:04 pm
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 3, 2015 at 5:36 pm
RE: Proof of God - by ManMachine - March 3, 2015 at 5:56 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - March 3, 2015 at 11:16 pm
RE: Proof of God - by ManMachine - March 4, 2015 at 7:37 am
RE: Proof of God - by Ravenshire - March 4, 2015 at 1:14 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 4, 2015 at 3:46 am
RE: Proof of God - by Norman Humann - March 4, 2015 at 3:50 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 4, 2015 at 4:11 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 4, 2015 at 6:47 am
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - March 4, 2015 at 4:29 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Ben Davis - March 5, 2015 at 7:31 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - March 5, 2015 at 7:37 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 10, 2015 at 7:45 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 14, 2015 at 2:39 am
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - March 14, 2015 at 2:56 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 14, 2015 at 2:58 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 14, 2015 at 5:33 am
RE: Proof of God - by Sarcasm - March 16, 2015 at 7:42 pm
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 18, 2015 at 11:13 am
RE: Proof of God - by Mudhammam - March 18, 2015 at 11:22 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 18, 2015 at 11:31 am
RE: Proof of God - by Ben Davis - March 18, 2015 at 11:37 am
RE: Proof of God - by Faith No More - March 18, 2015 at 11:31 am
RE: Proof of God - by Mudhammam - March 18, 2015 at 11:34 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 18, 2015 at 11:40 am
RE: Proof of God - by Ben Davis - March 18, 2015 at 11:41 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 18, 2015 at 11:44 am
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - March 18, 2015 at 12:47 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Thumpalumpacus - March 18, 2015 at 11:45 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 18, 2015 at 11:47 am
RE: Proof of God - by Thumpalumpacus - March 18, 2015 at 12:41 pm
RE: Proof of God - by downbeatplumb - March 18, 2015 at 1:30 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Faith No More - March 18, 2015 at 1:57 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - March 18, 2015 at 2:06 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Brian37 - March 18, 2015 at 2:28 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Whateverist - March 18, 2015 at 8:14 pm
RE: Proof of God - by LastPoet - March 18, 2015 at 2:10 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - March 18, 2015 at 8:24 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - March 20, 2015 at 5:29 pm
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - March 20, 2015 at 6:23 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - March 20, 2015 at 6:54 pm
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - March 22, 2015 at 10:47 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - March 24, 2015 at 1:25 pm
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - March 24, 2015 at 1:57 pm
RE: Proof of God - by downbeatplumb - March 24, 2015 at 2:26 pm
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - March 24, 2015 at 7:14 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - April 1, 2015 at 11:54 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 1, 2015 at 4:47 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - April 5, 2015 at 2:32 am
RE: Proof of God - by Whateverist - April 5, 2015 at 9:01 am
RE: Proof of God - by Whateverist - March 20, 2015 at 7:00 pm
Proof of God - by TubbyTubby - March 20, 2015 at 7:20 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Homeless Nutter - March 22, 2015 at 11:04 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Norman Humann - March 24, 2015 at 1:54 pm
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - March 24, 2015 at 2:55 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - March 24, 2015 at 10:31 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - March 24, 2015 at 7:09 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Brakeman - March 24, 2015 at 10:47 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Funcaldunkal - March 28, 2015 at 6:02 pm
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - April 1, 2015 at 12:12 pm
RE: Proof of God - by LostLocke - April 4, 2015 at 8:49 pm
RE: Proof of God - by IATIA - April 4, 2015 at 10:06 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Foxaèr - April 5, 2015 at 2:44 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 5, 2015 at 3:05 am
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - April 5, 2015 at 4:50 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 5, 2015 at 8:21 am
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - April 5, 2015 at 10:31 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 5, 2015 at 7:21 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - April 6, 2015 at 5:50 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 6, 2015 at 5:54 pm
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - April 5, 2015 at 4:37 am
RE: Proof of God - by Foxaèr - April 5, 2015 at 4:42 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - April 5, 2015 at 4:44 am
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - April 5, 2015 at 11:58 pm
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - April 6, 2015 at 5:56 am
RE: Proof of God - by LostLocke - April 6, 2015 at 12:02 pm
RE: Proof of God - by The Grand Nudger - April 6, 2015 at 6:02 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - April 6, 2015 at 6:44 pm
RE: Proof of God - by LostLocke - April 7, 2015 at 4:02 am
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - April 9, 2015 at 11:42 pm
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 11, 2015 at 7:21 am
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - April 14, 2015 at 1:46 pm
RE: Proof of God - by I_am_not_mafia - April 7, 2015 at 3:41 am
RE: Proof of God - by The Grand Nudger - April 7, 2015 at 12:18 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Fidel_Castronaut - April 7, 2015 at 1:52 pm
RE: Proof of God - by The Grand Nudger - April 10, 2015 at 12:40 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - April 10, 2015 at 2:31 am
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - April 10, 2015 at 4:49 am
RE: Proof of God - by Zen Badger - April 10, 2015 at 10:47 pm
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - April 11, 2015 at 2:41 am
RE: Proof of God - by henryp - April 14, 2015 at 5:50 pm
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 14, 2015 at 7:18 pm
RE: Proof of God - by The Grand Nudger - April 14, 2015 at 10:26 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - April 20, 2015 at 11:41 am
RE: Proof of God - by downbeatplumb - April 20, 2015 at 11:48 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - April 20, 2015 at 12:11 pm
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 20, 2015 at 1:43 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Whateverist - April 20, 2015 at 11:54 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - April 20, 2015 at 12:03 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Brian37 - April 22, 2015 at 4:55 pm
RE: Proof of God - by IATIA - April 23, 2015 at 7:41 pm
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 23, 2015 at 9:08 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - April 24, 2015 at 6:57 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 24, 2015 at 7:44 am
RE: Proof of God - by Pizza - April 24, 2015 at 10:40 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - April 24, 2015 at 8:38 am
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - April 24, 2015 at 10:33 am
RE: Proof of God - by Neo-Scholastic - April 24, 2015 at 11:46 am
RE: Proof of God - by LostLocke - April 24, 2015 at 12:07 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Foxaèr - April 25, 2015 at 2:42 am
RE: Proof of God - by downbeatplumb - April 25, 2015 at 3:02 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - April 25, 2015 at 6:18 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - April 25, 2015 at 7:45 am
RE: Proof of God - by Twisted - May 3, 2015 at 2:34 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - May 3, 2015 at 4:38 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - May 3, 2015 at 5:52 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - May 3, 2015 at 6:07 am
RE: Proof of God - by Edwardo Piet - May 3, 2015 at 6:23 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - May 3, 2015 at 1:23 pm
RE: Proof of God - by The Grand Nudger - May 4, 2015 at 7:49 am
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - May 6, 2015 at 11:45 pm
RE: Proof of God - by IATIA - May 6, 2015 at 11:54 pm
RE: Proof of God - by LostLocke - May 8, 2015 at 2:21 pm
RE: Proof of God - by TheRealJoeFish - May 8, 2015 at 2:30 pm
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - May 8, 2015 at 6:46 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - May 14, 2015 at 5:58 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - May 14, 2015 at 6:32 am
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - May 17, 2015 at 5:34 am
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - May 17, 2015 at 10:51 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - May 14, 2015 at 7:42 am
RE: Proof of God - by Whateverist - May 14, 2015 at 7:55 am
RE: Proof of God - by Hatshepsut - May 8, 2015 at 10:26 pm
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - May 9, 2015 at 5:47 am
RE: Proof of God - by Mr.wizard - May 9, 2015 at 8:16 am
RE: Proof of God - by Hatshepsut - May 9, 2015 at 12:23 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Neo-Scholastic - May 13, 2015 at 2:19 pm
RE: Proof of God - by TheRealJoeFish - May 13, 2015 at 2:41 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - May 13, 2015 at 3:03 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Neo-Scholastic - May 13, 2015 at 3:37 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Esquilax - May 13, 2015 at 7:52 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - May 13, 2015 at 4:14 pm
RE: Proof of God - by TheRealJoeFish - May 13, 2015 at 6:18 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - May 13, 2015 at 9:24 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Neo-Scholastic - May 14, 2015 at 9:42 am
RE: Proof of God - by LostLocke - May 13, 2015 at 5:38 pm
RE: Proof of God - by ignoramus - May 13, 2015 at 7:54 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Whateverist - May 14, 2015 at 7:18 am
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - May 14, 2015 at 12:16 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Hatshepsut - May 15, 2015 at 10:26 am
RE: Proof of God - by LostLocke - May 15, 2015 at 11:09 am
RE: Proof of God - by Nope - May 16, 2015 at 3:48 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - May 15, 2015 at 11:52 am
RE: Proof of God - by Hatshepsut - May 15, 2015 at 1:56 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - May 15, 2015 at 1:58 pm
RE: Proof of God - by FatAndFaithless - May 15, 2015 at 2:00 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Hatshepsut - May 16, 2015 at 9:03 am
RE: Proof of God - by dyresand - May 15, 2015 at 8:34 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - May 16, 2015 at 2:06 pm
RE: Proof of God - by TheRealJoeFish - May 16, 2015 at 4:04 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - May 16, 2015 at 4:07 pm
RE: Proof of God - by The Grand Nudger - May 16, 2015 at 9:05 am
RE: Proof of God - by The Grand Nudger - May 17, 2015 at 7:31 am
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - May 17, 2015 at 7:34 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Harris - May 21, 2015 at 2:26 pm
RE: Proof of God - by pocaracas - May 21, 2015 at 3:23 pm
RE: Proof of God - by Cyberman - May 21, 2015 at 3:49 pm
RE: Proof of God - by bennyboy - May 21, 2015 at 7:59 pm
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - May 17, 2015 at 10:33 am
RE: Proof of God - by robvalue - May 18, 2015 at 1:02 am
RE: Proof of God - by Minimalist - May 21, 2015 at 2:33 pm
RE: Proof of God - by The Grand Nudger - May 21, 2015 at 2:39 pm
RE: Proof of God - by IATIA - May 21, 2015 at 8:24 pm

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