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Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion
#54
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion
(October 3, 2010 at 8:32 am)Tiberius Wrote: A misquote is a quote that is inaccurate; in other words, it is attributed to someone, yet that person didn't actually say it. If Zen Badger had attributed the quote to Churchill, it would be a misquote. He didn't. He said he was paraphrasing, which automatically puts the attribution onto the person saying the quote, not the quote's originator.

Now we've all had a lesson in using the dictionary (which isn't infallible; it's just agreed upon by rational people), you can stop with the trolling. The next time you do it, it won't be a verbal warning you get.

I totally support Zen Badger's right to misquote Churchill, it is a pity Adrian that you don't support my right to express my opinion that he did. I deny "trolling": an absurd allegation, I reject it completely.

Interestingly this debate goes far beyond what's been said historically about capitalism by Churchill. I was searching around for other sources on what I felt sure cannot be an original idea (as if!) and I came across a write up on a short fragment by Walter Benjamin, who was closely associated with Max Weber, entitled "Capitalism as Religion" from 1921 and not published until 1985. It makes for a fascinating read ‘One must see capitalism as a religion’ says Benjamin, who characterises capitalism as a having developed in the West as a parasite of Christianity.

Ultimately I think we could see that a parasite might eventually kill its host - certainly in the case of christianity, the parasite has essentially developed an independent life of its own such that it no longer needs the host to survive. Benjamin's work essentially supports my long-held view that all the organisational structures of capitalism - the government, companies, political parties, unions - are modelled on the patriarchy of the Roman Catholic church, such that the viability of any organisation from an army to a knitting club would have a short lifespan if it does not mimic this patriarchal model. Weber references Bruno Archibald Fuchs, who in 1914 "tried (in vain) to prove, in a polemic against Weber, that the origins of the capitalist world can already be found in the asceticism of the monastic orders and in the Pope’s centralisation of power in the medieval Church."

There are a couple of things about Benjamin's work that I'm not entirely convinced of. Benjamin seems to suggest that capitalism is a religion without a deity. Personally I am not convinced that a religion needs a deity to be defined as a religion, but as I said earlier the deity in capitalism is capital itself, the force that must be obeyed, and is frequently unfathomable, indecipherable and nobody understands it. There were very few if any convincing expressions of understanding during the recent banking crisis. An objection from the traditional atheist sources may that the deity must be claimed to be a supernatural entity; I would say Capital is treated as a supernatural entity even if it isn't explicitly claimed to be one. And since god doesn't exist anyway, it's a bit of a moot point whether the deity needs to be claimed to be supernatural or not - if its treated like a supernatural deity then for me it fits the criterion.

The other really interesting point about Benjamin's writing is his third point about guilt, basically he says that capitalism is the only religion that uses universal guilt with no expiation. If you're poor, it's your fault that you haven't manipulated the doctrines and teachings of capitalism to your advantage. There's a lot to explore here as welfare reforms are in the offing.

In summary it's a shame that Benjamin's work was published so late and that there isn't more of it to read - just a few pages, by all accounts. For me, it doesn't so much turn atheism on its head, it turns it the right way up - no longer confined to obsessing about the relatively insignificant actions of christianity, islam and judaism, it is an opportunity for atheists to turn their attention to a bigger and far more oppressive religion, capitalism.
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Messages In This Thread
Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Existentialist - October 1, 2010 at 5:48 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by HeyItsZeus - October 1, 2010 at 5:54 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by chasm - October 1, 2010 at 6:29 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Tiberius - October 1, 2010 at 8:50 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by chasm - October 1, 2010 at 9:19 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Minimalist - October 1, 2010 at 8:09 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by fr0d0 - October 1, 2010 at 11:14 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Minimalist - October 1, 2010 at 11:29 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by chasm - October 1, 2010 at 11:31 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Zen Badger - October 2, 2010 at 3:23 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Existentialist - October 2, 2010 at 6:30 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by DeistPaladin - October 2, 2010 at 9:41 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by HeyItsZeus - October 2, 2010 at 7:54 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Existentialist - October 2, 2010 at 8:32 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Ace Otana - October 2, 2010 at 8:48 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Existentialist - October 2, 2010 at 9:45 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Tiberius - October 2, 2010 at 10:41 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Existentialist - October 2, 2010 at 10:55 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by DeistPaladin - October 2, 2010 at 1:15 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Existentialist - October 2, 2010 at 1:27 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Existentialist - October 2, 2010 at 7:03 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by padraic - October 2, 2010 at 6:59 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Existentialist - October 2, 2010 at 7:17 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by padraic - October 2, 2010 at 6:59 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by theVOID - October 2, 2010 at 8:47 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Zen Badger - October 2, 2010 at 8:54 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Existentialist - October 2, 2010 at 9:40 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Cerrone - October 2, 2010 at 12:43 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Tiberius - October 2, 2010 at 11:58 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Existentialist - October 2, 2010 at 12:47 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Tiberius - October 3, 2010 at 12:07 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Existentialist - October 3, 2010 at 7:24 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Zen Badger - October 3, 2010 at 7:44 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Existentialist - October 2, 2010 at 1:17 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Ashendant - October 2, 2010 at 4:27 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Existentialist - October 2, 2010 at 5:10 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Existentialist - October 2, 2010 at 6:58 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Existentialist - October 3, 2010 at 2:00 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Minimalist - October 2, 2010 at 4:31 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Ashendant - October 2, 2010 at 9:06 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Zen Badger - October 3, 2010 at 6:06 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by fr0d0 - October 3, 2010 at 6:54 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Tiberius - October 3, 2010 at 7:37 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Existentialist - October 3, 2010 at 8:10 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Tiberius - October 3, 2010 at 8:32 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Existentialist - October 3, 2010 at 1:08 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Tiberius - October 3, 2010 at 4:30 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Existentialist - October 3, 2010 at 6:59 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Welsh cake - October 3, 2010 at 11:40 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Tiberius - October 3, 2010 at 11:49 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Welsh cake - October 3, 2010 at 12:17 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by fr0d0 - October 3, 2010 at 12:27 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Tiberius - October 3, 2010 at 7:18 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Existentialist - October 3, 2010 at 8:32 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Tiberius - October 4, 2010 at 3:04 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Existentialist - October 4, 2010 at 3:39 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by padraic - October 4, 2010 at 4:32 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Zen Badger - October 4, 2010 at 6:20 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Tiberius - October 4, 2010 at 7:50 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Existentialist - October 4, 2010 at 7:15 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Existentialist - October 4, 2010 at 2:48 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by gmjackson - October 4, 2010 at 8:17 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Existentialist - October 4, 2010 at 8:40 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by theVOID - October 4, 2010 at 8:58 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Sami - October 5, 2010 at 2:47 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Existentialist - October 9, 2010 at 8:55 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by theVOID - October 5, 2010 at 3:09 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Existentialist - October 7, 2010 at 5:51 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Existentialist - October 8, 2010 at 7:02 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Existentialist - October 10, 2010 at 12:51 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by fr0d0 - October 8, 2010 at 9:20 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by solja247 - October 8, 2010 at 10:34 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Tiberius - October 8, 2010 at 10:39 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by solja247 - October 9, 2010 at 12:15 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Anomalocaris - October 9, 2010 at 5:31 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Tiberius - October 10, 2010 at 1:03 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Ashendant - October 10, 2010 at 4:03 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Existentialist - October 11, 2010 at 6:12 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Ashendant - October 12, 2010 at 7:05 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Existentialist - October 13, 2010 at 3:40 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Ashendant - October 17, 2010 at 6:29 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Ashendant - October 17, 2010 at 3:58 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Skipper - October 17, 2010 at 7:19 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by little_monkey - October 17, 2010 at 9:13 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Tiberius - October 17, 2010 at 9:28 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Existentialist - October 18, 2010 at 1:34 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Rhizomorph13 - October 17, 2010 at 9:29 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by ib.me.ub - October 17, 2010 at 9:35 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by padraic - October 18, 2010 at 3:19 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Amethyst - October 18, 2010 at 6:41 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Anomalocaris - October 18, 2010 at 10:36 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Amethyst - October 18, 2010 at 6:17 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Ace Otana - October 18, 2010 at 7:09 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by Ashendant - October 18, 2010 at 10:36 am
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by padraic - October 18, 2010 at 7:29 pm
RE: Capitalism - the Ultimate Religion - by theVOID - October 18, 2010 at 7:56 pm

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