Miracle

[Harris]

Harris, even if early Muslim scholars invented/discovered/were aware of some science, so what? It's only a miracle if this knowledge is attained through supernatural revelation, i.e. from God rather than from observation and study.

You ramble on about passages that you say show awareness of scientific facts or principles that they could not have known. But if they wrote them down, they knew them. IF they knew these things, then the question is HOW did they know them?

If they knew science only through direct revelation from God, and not from their own observations and study, then either God was hopelessly stingy with the amount and quality of science he chose to reveal to them, or they were hopelessly retarded and uneducated in understanding, transcribing, and/or transmitting the complete body of all science, past present and future, which he must have revealed to them.

I think you are avoiding or not understanding one straight point. Although, people were reading these scientific facts in Quran yet they were unaware of the reality because of their incapacity to conceptualize these facts. 7th century people could not be the founder of these scientific facts because they were not even conscious of them.

Give a try yourself to find any trace in the history that someone knew about the expansion of the Universe before Einstein and Hubble especially in seventh century. At least how much I know there is no such evidence in the entire human history.

Second point, the purpose of scientific facts in Quran is not to give science education rather to show the incapacity of humans to produce such concepts in seventh century. By this Quran gives a proof to the future generations that these concepts can only be from God Who is the Creator of everything.

Whaat? I'm asking you to show me where I can find the germ theory in the quran. I mean, that would be pretty dang useful to the 7th century muslims. Why didn't Allah find it appropriate to tell them about it?

To live is to suffer, to survive is to find some meaning in the suffering

Anyway, nothing in this universe is immortal. If you are afraid of temporary sufferings of your temporary life, which is a natural feeling, then you should be afraid of eternal sufferings more about which Quran is giving warnings. Quran is giving miraculous scientific facts to manifest the authenticity of all those warnings.

The purpose of Quran is to give warning to arrogant and good tiding to the humble believer. Quran is not intended to give a Germ Theory or science tutorial.

It says they may taste the penalty, meaning cause them pain.

If I say I'm going to slap you across the face so you feel pain, I'm not saying that your face is needed for you to feel pain.

Additionally if the quran is saying the skin is not necessary it's wrong because other organs will be damaged by the fire also causing them pain. If you magically remove all of a persons skin from their body and set them on fire they will still feel pain.

Sense of burning is specific to the skin and few other organs. Other parts of the body have other kind of pain but not the sense caused by fire.

In mammals, nociceptors are sensory neurons that are found in any area of the body that can sense noxious stimuli either externally or internally. External examples are in tissues such as skin (cutaneous nociceptors), cornea and mucosa. Internal nociceptors are in a variety of organs, such as the muscle, joint, bladder, gut and continuing along the digestive tract.

So IF god is saying that skin is necessary to feel pain he's wrong. There's pain receptors in other parts of the body internally and externally.

Which organs in human body can sense the heat similar to skin?

You're wrong on the first point because it doesn't matter if fire doesn't penetrate the skin. The heat from being in a very hot climate is enough to cause heat stroke and damage to a human. If a person is thrown in a fire, even with invincible skin, the sheer heat would be enough to do damage to a human body without the fire ever penetrating the skin. The blood will boil the brain won't function.
Like if you put a pot on fire with water inside, the metal isn't damaged by the fire but the water inside boils.

So what you're saying is god gives man immortal blood and brains but the skin is for some reason effected by this fire?

Skin is not made of metal and it is a bad conductor of heat.

Why leatherwear are popular in cold countries?

It should be very very obvious what the problem is. You're saying that when the quran says "sent down" It couldn't mean anything else but sent down in a meteorite and is therefore definitely a miracle.

The term "Sent down" is used in the quran many times talking about things NOT sent down in meteorites, therefore when it is talking about iron it might also not be talking about sent down in meteorites, you don't know that it does mean sent down in meteorites.

This is just one argument that springs to mind, there are many other online you can find.

1. You are putting emphasis over “sent down” by omitting Iron. However, the verse is clear in stating,

“Sent down”

What?

“Iron.”

“…WE SENT DOWN IRON”

2. Science says:

Iron carried by meteorites to earth

You are trying to merge this detail in the meaning of the verse, which is a false act.

How God has sent down iron on earth is not mentioned in Quran. It may be meteorites or other mean.

According to the modern teachings of science, the main idea is that iron on earth is a foreign element, which was not part of earth at the time of its formation. The main idea of this fact goes side by side with the main idea of the verse without any contradiction.

I'm not making any positive claims regarding miracles. I'm saying I doubt any supernatural miraculous things exist. You say they do exist and that the verse you showed me is a miracle. You can't just say something is a miracle then ask me to find 6th or 7th century sources to prove you wrong.

It's up to you to prove to me that people in the 6th or 7th century had no knowledge of the symptoms of 3rd or 4th degree burns.

They wouldn't have to know where pain resides, where it is created, the verse doesn't mention where pain resides or anything like that in the verse you have shown me.

You prove to me simply that people in the 6th and 7th century didn't know that skin goes numb when it is severely burned. The only knowledge that you would need to be able to write that verse is that skin which is destroyed by fire feels no pain.

So just to clarify don't show me links that say they believe pain originated in the brain or in the heart, even if pain originated from the brain they could still know that burning skin hurts, and if they knew about 3rd or 4th degree burns they would also know that the skin ceases to feel pain at a certain point after being burned badly enough.

To put it even more simply, nothing you have posted proves that people during the time of Muhammad didn't know being burned badly causes numbness.

“THIS VERSE DOES NOT CONTRADICT ANY TEACHINGS ABOUT THE ORIGINS OF PAIN FROM AN ANCIENT UNDERSTANDING.”

By looking at your confidence, I have asked you to provide some references from sixth or seventh centuries:

I was aware that you or anyone would not be able to provide any and that is exactly what happened when you failed to provide one. You failed not because you are a stupid person but because such references simply do not exist.

If you scan entire human history and fail to find any hint that someone had the knowledge that burning the skin to a certain extent takes away its sensitivity to feel the pain then it is a clear indication that people in the past were not aware of this fact.

If no one had that knowledge until the Renaissance when systematic autopsies were carried out, by Andreas Vesalius (1514–1564) then it is impossible to give any explanation on how this information appeared in seventh century Quran and that impossibility is just what makes Quran a miracle.

Remember:

This verse says:

“as often as their SKINS are ROASTED THROUGH, WE SHALL CHANGE THEM FOR FRESH SKINS, that they may TASTE THE PENALTY”.

It is clearly stating that arrogant sinners would suffer burning to an extent until their SKINS WILL LOSE THE CHARACTERISTIC OF FEELING PAIN, thus indicating that skin will lose the specific feeling of burning if burnt to a certain extent. TO CONTINUE THE PENALTY FRESH SKINS would be given to them.

Ok so in your earlier example you said what if I was a powerful king. If I was a powerful king, no I would not misguide anyone.

I would explain the rules plainly so everyone could understand and punish those who disobeyed the rules. I wouldn't purposefully misguide anyone.

That metaphor I have used to manifest certain hidden details, which you were trying to hide behind your pretended words. That example was not to show that you are the real king or God.