(June 22, 2015 at 10:18 am)Tonus Wrote:(June 22, 2015 at 8:49 am)Little Rik Wrote: Since when an evidence is reasonable?Quote:I did not say that the evidence was reasonable. I said that the evidence allows us to reach a conclusion that is reasonable. You have got to start paying better attention than this. The words are literally written down on a computer screen for you to see. How can you keep getting them so wrong?
Ton, that is crazy.
Absolutely crazy.
If you already got the evidence what's the need to reach a conclusion?
Actually at this stage in time it seem that your conclusion is totally lacking of any evidence.
You just go around and around like this creature and getting nowhere.
Little Rik Wrote:Consciousness is YOU.
Quote:No. Consciousness is a state. You are either conscious or unconscious; aware or unaware. "Consciousness is YOU" is meaningless drivel.
If the consciousness is a state where is the real you?
You are hilarious Ton.
Little Rik Wrote:I can alter the engine of my car and this will affect the way the vehicle run and therefore also the driver will be affected.
Does this means that the driver is a state of the car?
Quote:Now you want me to explain your own awful analogies? Why are you confusing the mind and consciousness? Do you have any idea what you are talking about?
I certainly do Ton.
Have you?
Little Rik Wrote:In the face of reality?
Are you serious Ton?
Quote:Yes, I'm serious. You seem to be completely confused about all of this stuff. You can't seem to keep your explanations clear, you use atrocious analogies, and you seem incapable of comprehending anything you read, because you keep ascribing to me things I haven't said.
You keep on saying that the consciousness is a product of the brain.
Did i ascribe to you this or you said this?
Quote:Little Rik
1) First you say that you don't say that NDEs are bull and then you say the opposite by saying that NDEs have nothing to do with spirits or souls.
Quote:Those statements are not "opposite." Again, you seem to have no idea what you are talking about, or perhaps even what words mean. I understand that you like to redefine words to suit your purposes, but now you're becoming almost completely unintelligible.
Those who had a real NDE clearly say that the consciousness or spirit soul leave the dead body so by saying that NDEs have nothing to do with souls you contradict yourself.
Little Rik Wrote:2) You even state without any evidence that ......... we are learning what causes them..........
How did you learn? Where is the evidence that what you presume to have learned is true?
Quote:Read the previous pages of our conversation where I explain all of this.
You may have learned what someone guess.
You certainly have NOT learn the truth.
Little Rik Wrote:Are your experts skill enough to understand whether the consciousness is able to live a dead brain or not?
Quote:As I pointed out earlier, this is an example of "you can't prove it isn't." It's a poor way to push for your claims, since I can simply point out that you cannot prove it IS. So why are you wasting my time with such a useless ploy?
Ton, Ton it is YOU that make claims not me and therefore it is YOU that got to back your claims up.
Didn't you claim that NDEs have nothing to do with souls?
Little Rik Wrote:Ages ago they say that they got rid of malaria.
After they failed again and again malaria is still the No1 killer globally speaking.
Quote:If you are going to try to use an exception to prove the rule, at least try to use an actual exception. Science doesn't make boasts like "they got rid of malaria." Stop making up claims to try and salvage a hopeless point.
Wrong again Ton.
Science in this particular medical field boast time and time again that what they came up with was the solution.
Well as usual it turned up that the solution was far far away as we can see today.
Little Rik Wrote:Actually that is the ONLY way to know whether God is there or not from a physical point of view
so considering that you take in consideration only what can be proved physically speaking then
the question is not dumb at all.
Quote:I didn't say it was a dumb question. I said it's a dumb argument. If the only way to confirm that god exists is to die, then you have no way to show me that god exists. Same with spirits and souls and any other fairytale creature you want to conjure up. If that's all you have, your argument is a waste of time. It is worthless.
Thousand upon thousand of people in the present and in the past die and then came back to life (NDEs).
Guess what Ton.
A lot of them agree that God is there.
Even those who didn't have a direct experience about God are not denying that God is not there.
Little Rik Wrote:I would have thought that ignorant is the one who believe that a piece of matter like the brain is more important than the real I or the super conscious mind.
Quote:That's one of the things that is keeping you ignorant.
If the matter is more important than the consciousness then your computer should write a post for you.
No need to think Ton.
Isn't that beautiful?
Little Rik Wrote:If we take in consideration only the physical aspect of the issue then it is obvious that nothing can be proved.
Quote:Lots of things can be proved by taking only the physical into consideration. You're typing this on a computer or tablet somewhere and posting it to a website on the internet, aren't you? That requires numerous layers of technology, from electrical power to microscopic computer circuits to cabling standards and mathematics and lots of things that we prove with only the physical world to study. The best part is that no matter where you are or who you are or what culture you live in, science works the same way every time. Religion, on the other hand? Not so much.
The best part is that no matter where you are or who you are or what culture you live in......... but as far as you don't use your mind nothing will happen.
The computer will not be able to write something for you.
Little Rik Wrote:How can something abstract as the consciousness can be proved in a physical way?First, by realizing that it's not "abstract." Second, by studying how changes to the brain affect a person's mind and personality. By studying how the brain reacts to different stimuli. By studying how environmental and emotional stresses produce similar and reproducible results. I keep pointing this out to you and you keep ignoring it. But as I've said before, this is your problem and not mine. The world is leaving you behind, Rik. Don't wait until you're dead to find out if you were right-- it'll be too late then.
So you should realize that is not abstract?
Gee Ton you should be the guru in the philosophy forum.
Over there people talk about high thinking.
I don't really think that i can follow you along these lines.