Hello atheistforum

[Michelle_Patton]

(3rd February 2012 02:16)brotherlylove Wrote:  No problem. It is the same in that there are minimum qualifications to being a Christian, namely that you believe that God raised Jesus from the dead, and that you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord.

Not everyone who calls themselves Christian believes that Jesus was raised from the dead. There are very many casual Christians out there, who are in the church for social reasons. Also, not everyone who says Jesus is Lord is confessing that He is Lord. Jesus said this:

Matthew 7:21

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

There is a difference between saying it and living it. The difference is whether someone is born again. It's plainly obvious to a Christian who is born again and who isn't, but not so much to an unbeliever.

You and I probably couldn't tell the difference between a specialist in Jet Propulsion and an advanced engineer in another specialty, and it's the same way with nonbelievers trying to tell Christians apart. They can't so they claim that anyone who says they are a Christian, is. The bible disagrees as I demonstrated above.

As far as I'm concerned, if you believe in god and Jesus, if you believe we are all unworthy sinners who will burn in hell for being sinners and not repenting, if you go to church to worship, and especially if you call yourself a christian, you are a christian. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, it's a duck regardless of whether it's a Mallard, an Aylesbury or Peking duck!
As to the part I bolded, that's a little arrogant of you to say, don't you think?

(3rd February 2012 01:08)Michelle_Patton Wrote:  My proof is the internal witness of the Holy Spirit. I have several logical arguments that I could present but they won't prove to you that God exists. The bible says this is not an evidence issue but a heart issue with the unbeliever. That He has given sufficient evidence to everyone, but those who deny He exists are suppressing the truth due to unrighteousness. That it seems like a logical problem on the surface, but underneath it is a rejection of Gods authority because of sin.

Just because you 'feel' it doesn't make it so. I'm telling you right now, he hasn't given sufficient evidence of his existence. If he had, we wouldn't be here now having this conversation.

(3rd February 2012 01:08)Michelle_Patton Wrote:  1 Corinthians 1:18

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

This is saying that, man, with all of his cumulaitive knowledge and wisdom, has come to know absolutely nothing of God. God, in His wisdom, chose to reveal Himself through something the world would believe is foolish. Why?

1 Corinthians 1:25

For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

God is saying this to the world:

1 Corinthians 1:20

Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

He is saying that the thoughts of men are futile. The bible also says this clearly, that all truth is spiritually discerned, and without the Holy Spirit you will never understand any of it:

1 Corinthians 2:14

The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I personally know this to be true, because I used to believe it was foolishness too. It was not until I received the Holy Spirit that I could understand what any of it was about, or how any of it could possibly make any sense.

I've actually seen that video before. I would say the flaw in your reasoning is the same flaw in his reasoning; you don't go to hell because of unbelief, you go to hell because of sin. There wasn't one mention of sin in that video, and the way he portrayed himself was as someone who hadn't really done anything wrong. Yet, he is a sinner, and has transgressed Gods laws. He doesn't seem to think that is a big deal. I would say this, and his obvious pride, is a big part of the problem.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Romans 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

I don't see any mention of sin in these verses......

Is your god really so insecure that belief in him is vital?

Quote:The contradictions are apparent, but not actual. It seems simple on the surface but it is actually very complex, and without spiritual discernment, you won't be able to understand it.

What were the circumstances of your conversion?

And there it is, the arrogance I've come to expect from christians. I don't understand because I don't believe? So what about when I did believe? It made no sense then either but I skipped over that because I wanted to believe.

I'm assuming you mean my conversion to belief? I was introduced to religion fairly late in life, and I prayed to be shown the truth. I felt the holy spirit too! Funny thing though, after I'd converted, I never felt it again. And I tried, believe me! Before you start in on the whole "You didn't do it the right way then" let me tell you, if believing wholeheartedly and asking sincerely isn't enough for god, if he would turn around and say "Well yes, you believed, and yes, you confessed to being a sinner and truly repented of those sins, and yes, you did pray to me with a humble heart and open mind, but you didn't use exactly the right words.." then quite frankly, screw him!

Quote:I'm not trying to offend you, I am warning you. If you believed it to be true, which would be more offensive..warning someone about it or keeping it to yourself?

If you really don't understand what's so offensive about it (not just you telling us that, but that you believe in a god who thinks that way) then I don't think I can explain it to you. I have no interest in worshipping such a sadistic god who would punish us for being how he made us.