Seeing red

[The Grand Nudger]

Well, do you accept experiences as intrinstically "known" or not?  I do.  I think therefore I am, and all that, right?

I have an addendum, "but I know not -what- I am".  But that's an aside.   Do you understand why your claim that idealism subsumes materialism is problematic now?  You managed to quote me, respond to me, and not comment at all.  I'll repeat;

"This stuff is insufficient to explain "x", and idealism works just like it."

If seeming to be conscious is being conscious, then androids are conscious.  That's not how I define things.

Then how have you determined -me- to be conscious?  

I've never told you androids don't have mind.  I've told you that I wouldn't find their physical mannerisms sufficient for me to put them under the umbrella of my pragmatic assumption that "If it seems sufficiently like me, I'll accept that it thinks like me."

Why is "physical" even in this response?  Their mannerisms.  Full stop.  That seems to be how you've determined that I am conscious.  

I'm not inconsistent.  I have experiences, and form views from them.  Insofar as my views represent my experiences, they are all known.  Insofar as my views attempt to lay a philosophical framework for those experiences, I'm agnostic and must speculate.  Therefore, I stop at the experiences themselves as the basis of my reality, with the underlying "reality" being unknown.

-You- may not be inconsistent, but you are being inconsistent here, in this.  The underlying reality is a non-issue, I made no mention of it whatsoever...and it it has no bearing on what I've asked.

If my life was filled with androids, and I was raised by an android, and there were android freedom fighters and issues about android rights, etc. I might have to decide to extend that umbrella.  However, none of that says anything about whether androids think or just seem so, or whether I should make two ADDITIONAL assumption-- i.e. that the universe is not only material, but exclusively so?

Your life -is- filled with just such philosophical androids.   What's all this material business.  It keeps cropping up...but I made no comments to that effect.

Perhaps now you see the cliff?  When you disqualified all this biology of mine, including my brain, (made of stuff, made of ideas...doesn't matter in the least in this regard) as mind, when you made a seperation of inference...you removed any ability for -you- to disqualify the android by pointing to all of it's machinery (made of stuff, made of ideas, again it does not matter) - or any dissimilarity between your biology and it's machinery.  Only one portion of your overall opinion on the matter can be maintained at once.

Take your version of idealism (leave my concepts), and run with it, but you'll then need to grant an android consciousness for the simple fact of seeming to be conscious.  Not much of a problem..since you granted me consciousness for no more, and no less. Or deny the android, referring to what -you- have claimed to be insufficient explanation -as- explanation....... and lose the foundation of your rationalizations for idealism while maintaining the singular and unique nature of your mind in relation to an android...even if it does manage to pull a neat trick and act just like you.....which it probably never will..in my opinion.

It seems to be a difficult choice for you to make.

Wanna know my position, on that? I think that regardless of whether or not a machine could have a mind, a consciousness... it would have a human mind or consciousness. I think that it may be convincing, but not convincingly human. I;m able to pick up tiny little differences in other humans that let me know they may be a little "less than human" as it were......pretty sure a machine couldn't pull off an act any more convincingly. Basically, I'm guessing that a native speaker of an awfully specific and quirky local dialect as "human" is going to be able to recognize an out of towner...even if they have plenty of occasion to comment upon how great his accent and inflection have become since learning our language. Perhaps we agree here, if nowhere else?

That's one of the beauties of the blind in the test...for ai... we can't know those details that might give it away obviously. Removes our bias.

(also, get rekt noob i'm in all the bushes, you can't know that I'm not! You gonna lol after work?)