Pyramid of Capitalism

[reverendjeremiah]

You should have a portion of the pie relative to the value of your contributions. The problem is your proposed system has no non-arbitrary way to assign value.

Why? Why SHOULD it be that way? Nobody's name is on that gold, or on that food sitting in the storage bin.
Do you consider human life as valueable? I do. Syndicalists place human life as the value in their system. Human life is precious regardless of age, sex, race, and even religious beliefs and THAT is how they base their values system.

How does your proposed system assign value?

And who is going to pay you in the mean time? Who is going to provide the capital needed for the infrastructure and other initial costs? If you're getting a share of the value of the finished product then what of your wages before this venture yields some technology of value that other people are willing to trade resources for? You're going to need investors, some persons to lend you resources in the interim for start-up capital and wages, and the only reason any company, investor or syndicate is going to want to do that is if they get something in return for their loss of resources.

First off, pay as in "money" pay will usually be abolished in the system. Syndicalism can be run in many different ways, and some may very well use a monetary system. I personally am in favor of the ration system. And dont give me that heartache about rationing. rationing still exists in capitalist societies. the only difference is that someone who has a crap load of money can buy up the entire rationed stock and then jack the prices up and sell it for an inflated profit, which is cruel and anti-social. My proposed system has no need for investors and most especially money lenders. They are leeches of society who do nothing more than shuffle paper work, create slave wages, and are generally worthless and harmful to society. Syndicalism will come together with all trade unions in deciding where the raw materials will be used to create necesary items. Companies will no longer exist. Investors will no longer exist. Syndicates are NOT investors. The return is a happy life. Loss of resources are minimized through recycle programs.

Oh, so someone giving you resources to start the venture and provide for the persons involved in the interim magically isn't funding if you've got a no-money system?

And what are you going to use to endow people with value to exchange for that which they desire? Is there going to be some arbitrator who decides what it is the people need, or do you have to write a letter with a request and see how much of the allotted pool of resources is available to provide you with the items you seek?

Nope. I will have an equal vote in the process when it comes to the trade I am involved in. It is to ensure that those who are knowledgable have the say so in the direction of what is created from the result of their trade. Capitalism will let greedy, blood sucking investors fund medical research. because of that, medicine price are outrageous. In a syndicate, medical professionals form a group to decide what would best benefit humanity. Monetary profit is obsolete, and human happiness and well being becomes the value.

Property is theft? So if you make a guitar and claim ownership of it then you've "stolen" from someone?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_is_theft!

99.99% of people DO NOT think that way and telling them that they should or must is NEVER going to work. If someone spends their time working towards some material end, be that exchanging the proceeds of their productivity for other goods or crafting goods of their own then they will see that object as their property, you have absolutely no right to tell them otherwise.
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Oh right, because that's the only reason people ever get killed

So. Do you have a guard then?

I dont.

Sure, and no socialists ever had protection!

I'm sure they had to as well... and?

No, a generous person is open armed, it doesn't matter one iota what system of government they are operating under, the attitude of a person being such that they would freely give their own resources to another person is something that runs much deeper than the facade of politics. Encouraging more of this behavior is apolitical.

No, a syndicalist is a generous person, just like a generous person is a generous person. Lets not try to play word games here.

I like being accused of being "apolitical".... it's fitting.

Maybe the people who can paint two walls in the time their colleague can do one but is no better off for it are pissed off. Maybe the people who have ideas for goods/services which improve the lives of a great number of people are pissed off when their ideas are stolen by the collective and given to other people.

Maybe maybe maybe.... I have alot of maybes too. Maybe people steal because capitalism forces them to do so. Maybe people kill because their society values things more than human lives.

Because some people want more, there are people who are inherently greedy who will steal, irrespective of their circumstances. Changing a political system will do absolutely nothing to change this fact of nature, the only appropriate response is to punish those who take resources from other people without consent.

absolutely 100% correct. And I am not suggesting to change a political system. I am advocating abolishing the political system.

I agree with this, but it has more to do with the level of centralized control that exists than anything else, when the government or a collective (and subsequently the military) have authority over the rights and lives of other people then there always exists the opportunity for such a thing.

Syndicalism tries its best not to centralize power. Syndicalism deals in a diversification through co-operation.

BTW...thanks for the great discussion!

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The workers make the guns, the food, run the silos, maintain the infrastructure, and keep things moving. If the workers altogether revolted: kings and popes would together be meaningless.

Brecht exressed it thus;-

http://chilaborarts.wordpress.com/2010/0...-april-11/

HERE HERE!