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Any Evidence For A Historical Jesus?
#31
RE: Any Evidence For A Historical Jesus?
(December 15, 2011 at 6:16 pm)helmespc Wrote: So we're pretty much at the conclusion that there is no evidence here... the same conclusion I have reached many times in the past. So why is it considered undisputed fact that he DID exist? My partner is a master's student in history... she and her (highly intelligent) colleagues have repeatedly rejected the notion that Jesus is not real, with no real argument as to why we shouldn't question the existence of a historical Jesus? I've pretty much taken for granted that none of the events in the bible are historical in the least, and I don't understand why anyone else would come to the same conclusion.

It's called brain washing. And no there is no evidence to support an Historical JESUS as purported in the BIBLE......he was a GHOST of ANTIQUITY.


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#32
RE: Any Evidence For A Historical Jesus?
Quote:NO, 'we ' are not.

I tried to explain that evidence is not the same as proof. There are shit loads of evidence for an historical Jesus. However, none of it is CREDIBLE and none of it constitutes PROOF. IE there is evidence but no proof

/Fixed... and you are correct.
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#33
RE: Any Evidence For A Historical Jesus?
Quote:So why is it considered undisputed fact that he DID exist?

Because theistic morons keep screeching at the top of their lungs that he did.

Even top notch scholars, like Bart Ehrman, lose their fucking minds on this topic. There is as much evidence for jesus being real as there is for Zeus...
none.
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#34
RE: Any Evidence For A Historical Jesus?
Hi, Napo,

Yes, there is evidence that exists for Jesus outside of the Bible. 1 Clement (late 1st century C.E. ) 1. and the Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus (circa 115 C.E.) arguably provide the earliest extra-biblical evidence that Jesus existed. I supply some specific examples below.

1 Clement is a late first century Christian source that attributes itself to Christians in Rome writing to Christians in Corinth. Although it is a Christian document, it is not part of the Bible, so it fits into the category of “evidence that exists outside of the Bible” that suggests Jesus was a historical person. 1 Clement says Jesus was a humble man (1 Clement 16). It also alleges that Jesus was one of Abraham’s descendants (1 Clement 32). Third, it implies Jesus sent out apostles (1 Clement 42). Finally, it reflects the belief that Jesus rose from the dead (1 Clement 42). Historians also have some non-Christian extra-biblical material to work with, too.

Cornelius Tacitus was born circa 56 C.E. and he briefly mentions Christians and “Christus” around 115 C.E. during his discussion of Rome burning in 64 C.E. In a portion of The Twelve Caesars titled “Nero” Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus also mentions this fire in Rome, accusing Nero of igniting it. Most historians concur that Suetonius was born in 70 C.E. 2., so he was not a contemporary of this incident, if they are correct. Suetonius writes:

“Nero showed no greater mercy to the common folk, or to the very walls of Rome. Once, in the course of a general conversation, someone quoted the line ‘When I am dead, my fire consume the earth,’ but Nero said that the first part of the line should read ‘While I yet live,’ and soon converted this fancy into fact. Pretending to be disgusted by the drab old buildings and narrow, winding streets of Rome, he brazenly set fire to the city, and though a number of former consuls caught his attendants trespassing on their property with tow and blazing torches, they dared not interfere” (Nero 38). 3.


Tacitus writes:

“Christus, from whom their name is derived, was executed at the hands of the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius.” (Annals 15.44).

This passage indicates that Pontius Pilate executed Christians’ founder during Tiberius’s reign. Sometimes people reject Tacitus’s testimony concerning “Christus,” because Tacitus was not one of Jesus’s contemporaries. Tacitus, they reason, cannot be deemed a source of knowledge about Jesus, because they assume that a historian must always be contemporary with the events and people they describe in order to consider that historian a reliable source of information. For the sake of consistency, they must dismiss Tacitus’s version of the details of first century C.E. Roman history that Tacitus provides in many of the books of the Annals. Tacitus was born around 56 C.E., but he purports to narrate events that occurred in the years 14-54 C.E. in Books One through Six and Books Eleven and Twelve (the intermediary books are missing).

Other people object that Annals 15.44 inappropriately calls Pontius Pilate a “procurator,” so a Christian forger must have added this reference to Christians and “Christus.” Additional primary source material, however, militates against this objection. Specifically, Josephus (War of the Jews 2.9.2) and Philo of Alexandria (in Legatio ad Gaium 38) similarly call Pontius Pilate a procurator, too. In his account of the Jews’ war against the Romans (66-70 C.E.) Josephus writes:

“Now Pilate, who was sent as procurator into Judea by Tiberius, sent by night those images of Caesar that are called ensigns into Jerusalem.” (War of the Jews 2.9.2)

In her monograph The Jews Under Roman Rule From Pompey to Diocletian: A Study in Political Relations, E. Mary Smallwood, Professor of Romano-Jewish History in the Queen’s University of Belfast, explains that the terms “prefect” and “procurator” were often used synonymously in the first century. She writes:

“The equestrian governors who administered Judaea from 6 to 66 have until recently all been referred to commonly as ‘procurators,’ the title given to Pontius Pilate and to Gessius Florus by Tacitus, by whose time it had become the regular title for such officials. In the Bellum Judaicum Josephus generally uses the Greek term which by the late first century A.D. had become the standard translation of ‘procurator,’ as does Philo, writing a generation earlier, in his sole reference to Pilate.” 4.


Later first century writers, such as Josephus and Philo, therefore, tend to use the term “procurator” more than “prefect.” Tacitus, in summary, informs modern historians that “Christus” was executed under Pilate’s authority during Tiberius’s reign.


Also, contrary to the view commonly pontificated online, most scholars conclude that the first century C.E. Jewish historian Flavius Josephus also refers to Jesus twice: once in a passage in Antiquities of the Jews 18.63-64, probably containing interpolations, and a second time in a rarely-disputed portion in Antiquities of the Jews 20.200. Concerning Antiquities of the Jews 18.63-64, a small sampling of this scholarly majority includes: Bart Ehrman 5., John Dominic Crossan 6., E. P. Sanders 7., Helen Bond 8., Geza Vermes 9., and Paula Fredriksen. Fredriksen reports, “Most scholars currently incline to see the passage as basically authentic, with a few later insertions by a Christian scribe.” 10.

Interestingly, the phrases, “a wise man” (sophos aner) and “doer of wonders” (paradoxon ergon poietes), are not identified as being interpolations. Geza Vermes, a research professor in the Oriental Studies department at the University of Oxford, makes a fascinating argument for these phrases’ authenticity. In his paper “The Jesus Notice of Josephus Re-examined,” he explains both of these phrases occur throughout other portions of Josephus’s writings. 11. Vermes notes, for instance, that Josephus calls Solomon a “wise man” in Antiquities of the Jews 8.53. He also observes that Josephus identifies Daniel as being a “wise man” in Antiquities of the Jews 10.237. Vermes, moreover, reports Antiquities of the Jews 9.182 says Elisha, “also performed wonderful and surprising works by prophecy (paradoxa dia tes propheteias epedeixato erga)”. Paula Fredriksen follows Vermes, writing that Josephus’s report “independent of the Gospels, reveals only that Jesus was a wonder-working wise man and teacher whom Pilate crucified.” 12. Fredriksen, therefore, utilizes Josephus and determines Josephus portrays Jesus as a wonder-worker of some kind.

In Antiquities of the Jews 20.200, Josephus identifies Jesus as being the brother of a man named James and relays he “was called Christ.” The reputable Josephus scholar Louis H. Feldman writes, “Unlike the passage on Jesus (Antiq. xviii.63-64), few have doubted the genuineness of this passage on James.” 13.

None of this demonstrates that Josephus did, in fact, mention Jesus. Again, I only bring the research pertinent to these two Josephus passages to readers’ attention to correct the misconception that Christian apologists are the only individuals who deem these selections to be genuine.

In summary, the amalgam of 1 Clement’s and Tacitus’s testimonies function as evidence that exists outside of the Bible supporting the view that there was a historical figure named Jesus. Moreover, it is factually inaccurate to opine the view that only Christian apologists conclude Josephus mentioned Jesus in some way. I hope this information is helpful.


Kind regards,

Fpvpilot

Endnotes:

1. Bart Ehrman, The New Testament: A Historical Introduction to the Early Christian Writings. Fourth Edition (New York, Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2008), 462.

2. Suetonius, The Twelve Caesars, trans. Robert Graves (New York: Penguin Books, 1957, 2007), xviii.

3. Suetonius, The Twelve Caesars, 230.

4. The Jews Under Roman Rule From Pompey to Diocletian: A Study in Political Relations (Leiden: E. J. Brill, 1981), 145.

5. Bart Ehrman, The New Testament, 227-228.

6. John Dominic Crossan, Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography (New York: HarperSanFrancisco, 1994), 161, 134.

7. E. P. Sanders, The Historical Figure of Jesus (New York: Penguin Books, 1993), 50.

8. Helen Bond, “Josephus in Recent Research” in Currents in Research: Biblical Studies 8 (2000), 179. (2000), 179. See also Bond’s forthcoming monograph The Historical Jesus: A Guide For the Perplexed.

9. Geza Vermes, “The Jesus Notice of Josephus Re-examined,” in Journal of Jewish Studies 38 (1987), 1-10.

10. Paula Fredriksen, Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews: A Jewish Life and the Emergence of Christianity (New York: Vintage Books, 2000), 249.

11. Geza Vermes, “The Jesus Notice of Josephus Re-examined,” in Journal of Jewish Studies 38 (1987), 1-10.

12. Paula Fredriksen, Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews, 248.

13. Josephus Jewish Antiquities Book XX General Index, Loeb Classical Library, trans. Louis H. Feldman (Cambridge, Massachusetts/ London, England: Harvard University Press, 1965), 108, Note a.
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#35
RE: Any Evidence For A Historical Jesus?
Fpvpilot, nice try... but a well known forgery and a 1st century epistle is not gonna convince anyone around here... regardless of the (christian apologist) citations.
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#36
RE: Any Evidence For A Historical Jesus?
Oh fuck...not this SHIT again.

The easily deluded xtian moron trots out Josephus once again!
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#37
RE: Any Evidence For A Historical Jesus?

Hi, helmespc,

Your response brings a number of questions to my mind. First, which text are you alluding to when you mention a “well-known forgery”? Second, what, precisely, is the definition of a “Christian apologist”? Third, how does that definition apply to each of the following: Bart Ehrman, John Dominic Crossan, E. P. Sanders, Helen Bond, Geza Vermes, Paula Fredriksen, and E. Mary Smallwood? Please quote from each of their publications (author, title, publication data, and page numbers), supplying specific examples that substantiate your position that the citations I use are from Christian apologists.

Kind regards,

Fpvpilot

(December 29, 2011 at 2:35 am)Minimalist Wrote: Oh fuck...not this SHIT again.

The easily deluded xtian moron trots out Josephus once again!

Hi, Minimalist,

How, exactly, do I utilize information from Josephus in my post and how is my usage of Josephus in those cases problematic?

Kind regards,

Fpvpilot
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#38
RE: Any Evidence For A Historical Jesus?
Um....you included THIS.

Quote:In Antiquities of the Jews 20.200, Josephus identifies Jesus as being the brother of a man named James and relays he “was called Christ.” The reputable Josephus scholar Louis H. Feldman writes, “Unlike the passage on Jesus (Antiq. xviii.63-64), few have doubted the genuineness of this passage on James.” 13.

None of this demonstrates that Josephus did, in fact, mention Jesus. Again, I only bring the research pertinent to these two Josephus passages to readers’ attention to correct the misconception that Christian apologists are the only individuals who deem these selections to be genuine.
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#39
RE: Any Evidence For A Historical Jesus?
(December 29, 2011 at 8:30 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Um....you included THIS.

Quote:In Antiquities of the Jews 20.200, Josephus identifies Jesus as being the brother of a man named James and relays he “was called Christ.” The reputable Josephus scholar Louis H. Feldman writes, “Unlike the passage on Jesus (Antiq. xviii.63-64), few have doubted the genuineness of this passage on James.” 13.

None of this demonstrates that Josephus did, in fact, mention Jesus. Again, I only bring the research pertinent to these two Josephus passages to readers’ attention to correct the misconception that Christian apologists are the only individuals who deem these selections to be genuine.

Hi, Minimalist,

What is problematic about what I wrote?

Kind regards,

Fpvpilot
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#40
RE: Any Evidence For A Historical Jesus?
[Image: smileyvault-popcorn.gif]
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
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