Question about meaning and perception of reality from a theist.

[Anomalocaris]

Loura: evidence doesn't matter.

This is why you are beneath any even nominally courteous response.

[amkerman]

Also loura: your post is nonresponsive. It is simply questioning me. I'm not looking for you to diagram my response, but to answer how meaning can be real w/o a belief in God.

Here I'll restate it simpler:

Does life have value apart from our personal beliefs? If so, how?

- if you answer no to the first question that's the end of the discussion. Simple.

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You don't need to quote me. You can just start, "life has real value apart from our personal beliefs. It has real value because..." and then just fill in the blank.

Or. You just say "no".

[Erinome]

I'll give you an example. I'm not sure if you have children or not, but suppose you do. If your child was killed, you would probably think that would be bad. You would most likely think so because you believe that your child is of value; that your child had worth and purpose. Do you think that your child actually has worth or value or purpose, "meaning", or is that meaning to your childs life merely illusory, a figment of your perception as the father?

1. I do have children.

2. I'm their mother.

If one of them were killed it would be devastating to me because I love my kids. I believe they have value to me, because I love them. Do they have worth? To me they do. What purpose or meaning they have is entirely up to them, and I have no say on the matter. If they died, it would be upsetting that they died before they were even old enough to realize their own purpose.

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Also loura: your post is nonresponsive. It is simply questioning me. I'm not looking for you to diagram my response, but to answer how meaning can be real w/o a belief in God.

Here I'll restate it simpler:

Does life have value apart from our personal beliefs? If so, how?

- if you answer no to the first question that's the end of the discussion. Simple.

---

You don't need to quote me. You can just start, "life has real value apart from our personal beliefs. It has real value because..." and then just fill in the blank.

Or. You just say "no".

No.

[Shell B]

If you don't believe "meaning" is real, if you believe that meaning is just illusory, that's fine.

Actually, any answer is fine. You don't get to dictate how people respond to your tired old OP.

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Can life have meaning w/o God?

Yes. The great difference is that the meaning is not found in uniformity. We each find our own meaning in our own lives. Also, life does not have to have meaning. It just often does for many of us. You are operating on the assumption that life should have meaning.

I mean I understand how we could perceive it to be have meaninb w/o God, but that perception is just illusory isn't it?

No. Too often people will call something illusory to give it less meaning. Something that is illusory is intangible to others, in most cases. Remember, we're talking illusion, not delusion. I do realize millions of people can share a delusion. At any rate, say I were to become the President of the U.S. and by some miracle of my own doing brought about world peace. My life's meaning would be far from illusory and would have nothing to do with god. Lesser accomplishments that hold significant meaning to the individual are often equally as tangible, just on a lesser scale.

Without God aren't life and death ultimately meaningless?

I'm with leo. You don't need god to have meaning in life and death and you do not necessarily garner meaning with god. This is a foolish assumption of yours.

As far as I can understand EITHER life has real meaning and there must be something real which we call "God" or "meaning" OR any "meaning" in life is illusory and people choose to believe in the illusion of God to give their life meaning.

The bolded portion appears to be your problem. That, and trying to lend understanding to something that really just is.

Believing that meaning is real but that "God" is illusory doesn't make any sense.

That depends. Apparently meaning to you is synonymous with god. Of course, in your case, it would make no sense to believe one and not the other as they hold hands and sing kumbaya in your head. However, it is not like that for everyone. We are able to separate superstition from our lives.

It's exactly the same belief. It would just be another unverifiable belief for which the word "God" has been replaced with the word "meaning".

Haha, not at all. If my death's "meaning" was to give a lung or heart to someone who could be saved by it, you could not say my death's god was to give a heart or lung . . . They are not interchangeable words. That wasn't even a good try.

If someone could explain how life has real meaning without "God" I am all ears. Honestly I'm not trying to get into an argument I just want to hear the rationalization.

Oh, please. You try making a rational point first.

I AM NOT ATTACKING ANYONE's BELIEFS.

No, but you are shouting. Chill with the caps, bro.

Furthermore, since all of our understanding of reality is based upon our perceptions, isn't the belief in the validity of human "perception" exactly the same as a belief in "God"? They are both ultimately beliefs in the unverifiable.

I just cannot even begin with this. What a ridiculous idea.

[amkerman]

If you don't believe "meaning" is real, if you believe that meaning is just illusory, that's fine.

Actually, any answer is fine. You don't get to dictate how people respond to your tired old OP.

---

Can life have meaning w/o God?

Yes. The great difference is that the meaning is not found in uniformity. We each find our own meaning in our own lives. Also, life does not have to have meaning. It just often does for many of us. You are operating on the assumption that life should have meaning.

That rationalization begs the question. I am fully aware that we each perceive meaning. The question was whether meaning actually existed apart from our perceptions. I don't really see how this is responding to the op, nor do I see where I made the assumption that life should have meaning.

I mean I understand how we could perceive it to be have meaninb w/o God, but that perception is just illusory isn't it?

No. Too often people will call something illusory to give it less meaning. Something that is illusory is intangible to others, in most cases. Remember, we're talking illusion, not delusion. I do realize millions of people can share a delusion. At any rate, say I were to become the President of the U.S. and by some miracle of my own doing brought about world peace. My life's meaning would be far from illusory and would have nothing to do with god. Lesser accomplishments that hold significant meaning to the individual are often equally as tangible, just on a lesser scale.

Illusory means "not real". It does not mean "intangible".

Well in your scenario you would have created world peace, and you may feel that brought meaning to your life, but again if meaning is simply figments of our imagination and conscious perceptions, illusory, world peace would mean jack squat. Unless of course you are stating that world peace is the meaning to life, which I don't think you are stating.

Without God aren't life and death ultimately meaningless?

I'm with leo. You don't need god to have meaning in life and death and you do not necessarily garner meaning with god. This is a foolish assumption of yours.

I never said you did. But ultimately, without God any meaning to life is illusory, purely creations of human consciousness. The meaning isn't real. Saying that the meaning is still real is the same as saying God is real simply because someone believes in God. How can a "meaning to life" created entirely within the human psyche be real but not unicorns, which are also pure figments of the mind?

You seem to be saying that we each decide what our meaning is, and that this personal construct somehow manifests itself as a "real" thing outside of our perception. Why? If "meaning" is just in our minds, it's not real. Right?

As far as I can understand EITHER life has real meaning and there must be something real which we call "God" or "meaning" OR any "meaning" in life is illusory and people choose to believe in the illusion of God to give their life meaning.

The bolded portion appears to be your problem. That, and trying to lend understanding to something that really just is.

Well it seems your understanding is inaccurate. On the one hand "meaning" is whatever we each decide it to be and on the other if we decide meaning is God that is delusion. It's either all delusion or none of it is. You want your cake and to eat it too.

Lending understanding to something that "just is"- you don't see the hypocrisy of that statement do you? It's the epitome of blind faith. Those simple words equate to a belief in "God". Just not the "God" you're thinking of.

Believing that meaning is real but that "God" is illusory doesn't make any sense.

That depends. Apparently meaning to you is synonymous with god. Of course, in your case, it would make no sense to believe one and not the other as they hold hands and sing kumbaya in your head. However, it is not like that for everyone. We are able to separate superstition from our lives.

You say you are separating superstition, but all I see is one superstition traded for another. You don't believe in God, you just believe that believing in whatever "meaning" you ascribe to life somehow makes it real.

It's exactly the same belief. It would just be another unverifiable belief for which the word "God" has been replaced with the word "meaning".

Haha, not at all. If my death's "meaning" was to give a lung or heart to someone who could be saved by it, you could not say my death's god was to give a heart or lung . . . They are not interchangeable words. That wasn't even a good try.

Sure you could. Death is tricky since it's a finality in your opinion, let's try giving a kidney.
If you believed your lifes purpose was to donate one of your kidneys to a dying friend or relative that would be what you believed. However, that doesn't make it true, it only makes it a belief. Unless of course meaning actually is real apart from your belief in it. Now suppose you believe gods will was that you donate a kidney to a dying friend. That to would be a belief, only true in your head, unless god is real apart from your belief in it. They are the same belief in something that is unverifiable. They can only be real if they "exist apart from our ideas or notions of what they are". That is the definition of real. If they don't exist apart from our ideas of them, they are illusory.

If someone could explain how life has real meaning without "God" I am all ears. Honestly I'm not trying to get into an argument I just want to hear the rationalization.

Oh, please. You try making a rational point first.

I AM NOT ATTACKING ANYONE's BELIEFS.

No, but you are shouting. Chill with the caps, bro.

Furthermore, since all of our understanding of reality is based upon our perceptions, isn't the belief in the validity of human "perception" exactly the same as a belief in "God"? They are both ultimately beliefs in the unverifiable.

I just cannot even begin with this. What a ridiculous idea.

At least you attempted at the first prong, even though you explanation basically insists some things, specifically meaning to life, are real even though they only exist in the mind, while others are not.

You say it's ridiculous, and to you that makes it so. It is because it is... That is the definition of blind faith.

[Perhaps]

Who believes in the validity of human perception?

Science? Naturalism?

[Minimalist]

I don't understand all the questions to my question.

Perhaps that is because of the poor quality of the question?

[Shell B]

You are being willfully disingenuous. Furthermore, you quote a fucking wall of text and gave me that piece of shit excuse for a fortune teller's response. You have an agenda. I assure you, that is not the way to approach this forum. You know what blind faith is and you know that seeing your bullshit as ridiculous based on multiple observations is not blind faith. Do you seriously have nothing better to do with your life than try to insult atheists by saying they are religious and have blind faith in any stupid thing you pull out of your ass? You do realize that you have religion and blind faith, right? You are like a leper trying to insult other people by claiming they have leprosy when there are no symptoms.

[Welsh cake]

Can life have meaning w/o God?

Can people find a sense of purpose or direction in their lives without imaginary friends? If mature enough, yes.

I mean I understand how we could perceive it to be have meaninb w/o God, but that perception is just illusory isn't it?

You made the erroneous presumption that God exists without evidence. We're not in denial. No deity from any religion has ever been demonstrated to exist.

Without God aren't life and death ultimately meaningless?

You ignore the fact that the finality of death renders finite life meaningless and conversely, eternal undying life would make it utterly worthless. Belief or disbelief in Gods or Goddesses is irrelevant.

As far as I can understand EITHER life has real meaning and there must be something real which we call "God" or "meaning" OR any "meaning" in life is illusory and people choose to believe in the illusion of God to give their life meaning.

As far as you've led yourself to believe. Existence is void of real (objective) meaning. Trying to tack on meaning/purpose/directive onto an objective reality that lacks any is said subjective illusion.

Believing that meaning is real but that "God" is illusory doesn't make any sense. It's exactly the same belief. It would just be another unverifiable belief for which the word "God" has been replaced with the word "meaning".

You're repeating yourself.

If someone could explain how life has real meaning without "God" I am all ears. Honestly I'm not trying to get into an argument I just want to hear the rationalization.

Rationalization is not the correct word to use. People haven't done anything inherently wrong or unacceptable by simply trying to justify their own lives, giving themselves a reason to live, and then living them accordingly.

Furthermore, since all of our understanding of reality is based upon our perceptions, isn't the belief in the validity of human "perception" exactly the same as a belief in "God"? They are both ultimately beliefs in the unverifiable.

What point are you trying to make?

[KichigaiNeko]

For me at least...