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A Scientific Basis for Spirit
#21
RE: A Scientific Basis for Spirit
Who knows what happens behind such curtains. They can be fun to think about. We do want to make sure that what we're imagining or proposing has a factual relationship with the real world, beyond our proposals and musings, at some point. Would we not?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#22
RE: A Scientific Basis for Spirit
(February 11, 2012 at 8:44 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Yet you proposed it as a scientific basis for what you define as spirit. One of the key features of science is that the experiments not only must be repeatable by everyone but the conclusions resulting from those experiments must be observable as well. The whole point of experiments is to eliminate ambiguity. It's no good my performing your experiment and getting a totally different result, because it proves nothing.

(ETA: Incidentally, another key part of the scientific method is peer review, in which your experiments and conclusions are tested to destruction. This in diluted form is what you're experiencing now.)

I'm sure your right.

There clearly are things that are totally beyond the capabilities of science to ever know. We were never guaranteed that science should be able to address every possible question. So perhaps you're right. Calling upon the scientific method to address these types of questions is a pretty futile thing to do.

We'll just have to accept that some things can never be known I guess.


Christian - A moron who believes that an all-benevolent God can simultaneously be a hateful jealous male-chauvinistic pig.
Wiccan - The epitome of cerebral evolution having mastered the magical powers of the universe and is in eternal harmony with the mind of God.
Atheist - An ill-defined term that means something different to everyone who uses it.
~~~~~
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
Clearly Jesus (a fictitious character or otherwise) will forgive people if they merely know not what they do
For the Bible Tells us so!
Reply
#23
RE: A Scientific Basis for Spirit
We don't know what we don't know, including what we could not know.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#24
RE: A Scientific Basis for Spirit
What a WONDERFUL thread!

I had been feeling a bit guilty,thinking I may have been unkind in my initial assessment of Abra. This thread has assuaged my guilt completely.

I'm so pleased I could just shit. Tiger
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#25
RE: A Scientific Basis for Spirit
(February 11, 2012 at 9:14 pm)Abracadabra Wrote: I'm sure your right.

There clearly are things that are totally beyond the capabilities of science to ever know. We were never guaranteed that science should be able to address every possible question. So perhaps you're right. Calling upon the scientific method to address these types of questions is a pretty futile thing to do.

We'll just have to accept that some things can never be known I guess.

Actually that's not at all what I said. It's all very well saying that something is beyond scientific investigation, but that just means it has no discernable or measurable effect on what we do know. As such it can probably be eliminated safely from the system à la Occam's Razor.

People have said that things like lightning, rainbows and disease were beyond science too. At one time it was thought impossible to know the distances to the stars. Now we not only those distances to the stars in our own Galaxy, those measurements proved that what were thought of as fuzzy patches of light or gas are in fact galaxies beyond our own. Measuring the distances to those galaxies helped refine the estimates of the age of the Universe which in turn helped validate the Big Bang model (it's rather an involved story).

So yeah, science. Pretty limited.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
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#26
RE: A Scientific Basis for Spirit
(February 11, 2012 at 9:48 pm)Stimbo Wrote: At one time it was thought impossible to know the distances to the stars. Now we not only those distances to the stars in our own Galaxy, those measurements proved that what were thought of as fuzzy patches of light or gas are in fact galaxies beyond our own. Measuring the distances to those galaxies helped refine the estimates of the age of the Universe which in turn helped validate the Big Bang model (it's rather an involved story).

So yeah, science. Pretty limited.

I'm fully aware of the entire cosmological picture in extreme detail from the very earliest microseconds of the Big Bang to our current state today, and pretty everything in between. I'm also fully aware of why it can't possibly be wrong. Unlike many Christians who claim that it's all "just theory".

I mean, sure, there are some details that may be open to adjustments, but the bulk of the story is obviously right on the money. And the CMBR supports this story in ways that are basically irrefutable.

However, what most people don't seem to be aware of is that the CMBR actually fits both the Inflation Theory and M-Theory of Branes colliding. So either one of those two theories are possible. And potentially others.

Although, the unfolding of the universe shortly after its creation is clearly carved in star light.

Unfortunately the whole entire fabric of the universe and it's unfolding may actually be just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the true nature of reality.

Thus it can still be true that science is pretty limited in knowing anything at all about the true nature of reality. Spacetime may only be a very small fraction of what constitutes reality. And that includes dark matter and dark energy because both of those would actually be part of the fabric of spacetime.

(February 11, 2012 at 9:48 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Actually that's not at all what I said. It's all very well saying that something is beyond scientific investigation, but that just means it has no discernable or measurable effect on what we do know. As such it can probably be eliminated safely from the system à la Occam's Razor.

You're misusing Occam's Razor, IMHO.

Occam's Razor simply states that if you have multiple theories that actually explain something then you should go with the simpler theory.

The reason Occam's Razor can't be applied here is because there doesn't even exist a single theory that actually explains what consciousness is. Therefore there's nothing to eliminate.

The emergent property idea is just a speculative guess. It's hardly an explanatory theory. So Occam's Razor has nothing to do with it.

Christian - A moron who believes that an all-benevolent God can simultaneously be a hateful jealous male-chauvinistic pig.
Wiccan - The epitome of cerebral evolution having mastered the magical powers of the universe and is in eternal harmony with the mind of God.
Atheist - An ill-defined term that means something different to everyone who uses it.
~~~~~
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
Clearly Jesus (a fictitious character or otherwise) will forgive people if they merely know not what they do
For the Bible Tells us so!
Reply
#27
RE: A Scientific Basis for Spirit
Actually Occam's Razor proposes that one should not inflate beyond what is necessary the number of entities required to explain something. Alternatively, that given a choice between competeing hypotheses, the one making the fewest assumptions is generally the more correct one. So the principle still applies, I'm afraid, whatever your HO. The system (the human brain in this case) operates upon principles which are either well understood or dimly so but scientifically investigable. The spirit hypothesis proposes an entity (in the Occam sense) extraneous to the system. Such an entity ought to be detectable if it has any effect on the system at all, or at the very least its effects should. Otherwise how would we even know anything about it at all? That's the bit that can be eliminated, the part that cannot be detected and that has no effects which can be detected.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
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#28
RE: A Scientific Basis for Spirit
(February 11, 2012 at 10:40 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Actually Occam's Razor proposes that one should not inflate beyond what is necessary the number of entities required to explain something. Alternatively, that given a choice between competeing hypotheses, the one making the fewest assumptions is generally the more correct one. So the principle still applies, I'm afraid, whatever your HO. The system (the human brain in this case) operates upon principles which are either well understood or dimly so but scientifically investigable. The spirit hypothesis proposes an entity (in the Occam sense) extraneous to the system. Such an entity ought to be detectable if it has any effect on the system at all, or at the very least its effects should. Otherwise how would we even know anything about it at all? That's the bit that can be eliminated, the part that cannot be detected and that has no effects which can be detected.


I fully understand what you are saying. But you making some pretty wild assumptions, IMHO.

You're saying, "The spirit hypothesis proposes an entity (in the Occam sense) extraneous to the system."

That is not exactly true. That all depends on the technical details of the theory and the limits you place on "the system".

After all, even the purely secular view of an 'emergent property' is a bit of cheat. It's simply pretending to have 'created' an answer that is 'part of the system' but not really a part of it.

It requires some ghostly "emergent property" to be the "spirit that has an experience".

So it's already creating completely imaginary made-up things that are clearly not part of "the system".

Since I'm considering the seat of "spirit" to actually exist in some underlying fabric of spacetime (i.e. in some form of quantum fields information), then in a very real sense, my place for spirit to 'reside' actually has more merit with respect to "the system" than would a speculated "emergent property".

So Occam's Razor could potentially favor this theory over a totally unwarranted theory of an make-pretend "emergent property".

By the way, this isn't exactly "my theory", other scientists are considering this possibility. In fact, some of them are addressing the interface issues using entanglement ideas from quantum mechanics. They are suggesting that the human brain may actually be a 'quantum computer'. If that's true then such theories would indeed be well within the scope of 'the system'.

The brain being a 'quantum computer' opens up all sorts of capabilities.

In fact, we already know that the brain doesn't work anything at all like our silicone computers. Our computers are digital based on a CPU that's really nothing more than a very simple adding machine. But our brains are clearly more closely related to analog computers, something we have basically given up on in terms of technology.

But an analog computer has a far better chance of evolving into a quantum computer for reason that should be obvious if you happen to understand computer technology and electronics.

I love these discussions by the way. Everyone else might think I'm nuts, but I get a lot of good ideas out of these discussions.
Christian - A moron who believes that an all-benevolent God can simultaneously be a hateful jealous male-chauvinistic pig.
Wiccan - The epitome of cerebral evolution having mastered the magical powers of the universe and is in eternal harmony with the mind of God.
Atheist - An ill-defined term that means something different to everyone who uses it.
~~~~~
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.
Clearly Jesus (a fictitious character or otherwise) will forgive people if they merely know not what they do
For the Bible Tells us so!
Reply
#29
RE: A Scientific Basis for Spirit
Emergent properties are not ghostly. They are well evidence and demonstrated. This has been mentioned to you before, the last time you used this sort of a line. Nobody cares who's theory it is, it's the evidence that makes or break the theory, not who it comes from or who may be contemplating it. Analogs are difficult to manufacture (for application) due to how large they might become (among other factors). Our biology is much much smaller(and more compact) than the types of analogs we could create. It has a few billion years head start on us.

"Emergence is the way complex systems and patterns arise out of a multiplicity of relatively simple interactions."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#30
RE: A Scientific Basis for Spirit
(February 11, 2012 at 10:20 pm)Abracadabra Wrote: Occam's Razor simply states that if you have multiple theories that actually explain something then you should go with the simpler theory.

I am now firmly in the Abra is an idiot camp. That is not what Occam's razor says at all. It is about adding unnecessary entities and says the theory without the unnecessary entities is most probably the correct one. Why is it that you "wishy-washy-can't take a stand if my life depended on it" morons ALWAYS misunderstand Occam's razor?
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