Posts: 5336
Threads: 198
Joined: June 24, 2010
Reputation:
77
RE: uncaused causes
February 16, 2012 at 1:14 am
Question:
Do Christian apologists ever offer anything other than philosophical arguments?
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
Posts: 18504
Threads: 79
Joined: May 29, 2010
Reputation:
125
RE: uncaused causes
February 16, 2012 at 7:06 am
(This post was last modified: February 16, 2012 at 7:07 am by LastPoet.)
They don't even do that DP. Their arguments are a mockery to Philosophy and anyone truly interested in aprehending reality.
Posts: 5336
Threads: 198
Joined: June 24, 2010
Reputation:
77
RE: uncaused causes
February 16, 2012 at 9:00 am
(February 16, 2012 at 7:06 am)LastPoet Wrote: They don't even do that DP. Their arguments are a mockery to Philosophy and anyone truly interested in aprehending reality.
Point well taken. I should have asked, "do they ever offer anything other than pseudo-philosophical arguments?"
This is a sincere question.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
Posts: 18504
Threads: 79
Joined: May 29, 2010
Reputation:
125
RE: uncaused causes
February 16, 2012 at 9:56 am
(This post was last modified: February 16, 2012 at 10:01 am by LastPoet.)
(February 16, 2012 at 9:00 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: Point well taken. I should have asked, "do they ever offer anything other than pseudo-philosophical arguments?"
This is a sincere question.
The less educated kind will just rant on the usual strawmen of evolution(as if refuting evolution proves god), be terrible skeptic of science while not being about religion, these are the sheep, and they will swallow any bullshit religious site, as AIG, etc.
The more educated kind, I have a hard time swalowing they truly believe, and as an intelectual refuge they all eventually try to drown people by philosophy. In a nutshell: Arguing god into existence. I, for this, hate what was done to philosophy. If they at least be honest enough to say they don't have enough evidence for god and that was their belief, then I'd be satisfied, but surely no honest person would stick to any of the contemporary religions dogma, being educated.
Then, knowing this, all they can revert back is a form of being a deist, because all they claim with the usual pseudo-philosophical arguments (TAG, Kalam) is, even if the argument was valid is that there is a deity, it still can be any deity.
So yeah, because of this, they will eventually fall to these arguments, because in their reality, can't accept that they are more moral than the dogma of the holy books, hence the apology.
And I end my rant
TL  R: IMO if you go by any of the organized religions, you are blatantly lying to yourself.
Posts: 5336
Threads: 198
Joined: June 24, 2010
Reputation:
77
RE: uncaused causes
February 16, 2012 at 10:16 am
(February 16, 2012 at 9:56 am)LastPoet Wrote: I, for this, hate what was done to philosophy.
It's junk philosophy in the same way that ID is junk science. Whenever you start with the desired conclusion and then try to find reasons to believe it, you're going to produce garbage regardless of whether your posing as a scientist or a philosopher.
My question relates to my post on the pre-failure of apologetics. My argument is that even if all these theoretical models and conjecture were logically sound, you'd still not be able to meet the burden of proof proportional to the extraordinary claims. The burden is going to be very heavy and needs hard evidence to support it. Conjecture and blah blah blah isn't going to cut it.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
Posts: 3160
Threads: 56
Joined: February 14, 2012
Reputation:
39
RE: uncaused causes
February 16, 2012 at 10:20 am
(This post was last modified: February 16, 2012 at 10:34 am by Reforged.)
Its amazing how many people don't understand the theory of evolution. Someone I debated with asked me if I thought that a human was, and I am directly quoting here, "a glorified baboon that evolved out of the mud over millions of years" and "a highly developed gorilla".
The ignorance there is fantastic. He didn't even bother to do a minutes scanning from wikipedia. The theory of evolution to this kind of person is basically:
Special Mud + Time = Epic Baboon
or
Super Gorilla + Shaving Cream = Human Being
Hes made little distinction between baboon or gorilla so for both of those to work he must presumably gather that:
Epic Baboon + Jungle Gym = Super Gorilla
Just when I thought it couldn't get any more ridiculous he came out with this gem: "What was the first living creature that evolved? Where did it evolve from, the mud of bacteria?"
..."Mud of bacteria"?
So now:
Bacteria - Special Mud + Time = Epic Baboon
Epic Baboon + Jungle Gym = Super Gorilla
Super Gorilla + Shaving Cream = Human Being
Evolution, the theist way.
Posts: 18504
Threads: 79
Joined: May 29, 2010
Reputation:
125
RE: uncaused causes
February 16, 2012 at 10:24 am
(This post was last modified: February 16, 2012 at 10:27 am by LastPoet.)
(February 16, 2012 at 10:16 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: Conjecture and blah blah blah isn't going to cut it.
Yes, but:
Adolf Hitler Wrote:The big masses of the people... are more likely to fall into a big lie, than a small one.
Mabe because of lack of education, me guesses.
Wait, does quoting Hitler counts towards Godwin's law?
Posts: 23918
Threads: 300
Joined: June 25, 2011
Reputation:
151
RE: uncaused causes
February 16, 2012 at 10:46 am
(February 16, 2012 at 9:00 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: (February 16, 2012 at 7:06 am)LastPoet Wrote: They don't even do that DP. Their arguments are a mockery to Philosophy and anyone truly interested in aprehending reality.
Point well taken. I should have asked, "do they ever offer anything other than pseudo-philosophical arguments?"
This is a sincere question.
You won't like this any better but what I hear theists say is that "they have seen God moving in their lives". That isn't an argument of course but I suppose it is "anything".
What I really think they're getting at is that in trying to understand the world and themselves, they find they need God for it all to 'make sense'. You have to realize they are brought up in a system in which all the adults around them act as though their imaginary friend is right there with them. So, Christians at least, grow up with an ongoing internal dialogue with God. When you think of how a writer can get into the voice of a new character, it isn't too hard how they could come to see God's end of the dialogue as genuinely apart from their own thinking.
My idea of an ideal theist or deist would be one that cops to all science, regards all holy books critically, admits they have no objective evidence and yet simply affirms the presence of their deity/god or whatever based on their bare intuition. I couldn't and wouldn't argue with that.
Posts: 66329
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
160
RE: uncaused causes
February 16, 2012 at 12:00 pm
(This post was last modified: February 16, 2012 at 12:01 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Good old argument from personal experience. Conversational blackmail. You are forced to call them idiots or liars, and they know it. Doesn't meet my standards for evidence.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 23918
Threads: 300
Joined: June 25, 2011
Reputation:
151
RE: uncaused causes
February 16, 2012 at 11:20 pm
(February 16, 2012 at 12:00 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Good old argument from personal experience. Conversational blackmail. You are forced to call them idiots or liars, and they know it. Doesn't meet my standards for evidence.
This makes me think of the scene from a science fiction movie .. maybe the Martian Chronicles .. where the earthling reaches out his hand and passes it through the martian. "You're not really there" says the earthling. Then the martian does the same thing and makes the same statement. Seems like my perfect theist and you would each feel bullied or blackmailed but ultimately unconvinced by the other. Fortunately for you I've never met my ideal theist so the issue is probably moot.
|
