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'Intelligent' design?
#71
RE: 'Intelligent' design?
I was just speaking in reference to their religious agenda. It's blitheringly obvious what designer they refer to, they make no bones about it, until they have to defend themselves in court. Again, courtrooms and honesty aren't even related. lol.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#72
RE: 'Intelligent' design?
(March 12, 2012 at 10:04 am)Rhythm Wrote: I was just speaking in reference to their religious agenda. It's blitheringly obvious what designer they refer to, they make no bones about it, until they have to defend themselves in court. Again, courtrooms and honesty aren't even related. lol.

Unless they are fully transparent at all times and not selling lies ANYWHERE they are not honest. When did lying become an act of honesty?
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#73
RE: 'Intelligent' design?
But what about teaching ....

THE CONTROVERSY

-------

Thats a definite pet hate of mine, hearing people spout about teaching the controversy.

Its only a controversy to teach BECAUSE its retarded. How is that ever an argument to teach something.

I'm sure they would say I misunderstand but that's all I hear.
Self-authenticating private evidence is useless, because it is indistinguishable from the illusion of it. ― Kel, Kelosophy Blog

If you’re going to watch tele, you should watch Scooby Doo. That show was so cool because every time there’s a church with a ghoul, or a ghost in a school. They looked beneath the mask and what was inside?
The f**king janitor or the dude who runs the waterslide. Throughout history every mystery. Ever solved has turned out to be. Not Magic.
― Tim Minchin, Storm
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#74
RE: 'Intelligent' design?
Quite the narrow view of "honest" i think you just ruled out honesty as a non-existent quality of mankind Phil. There are those who truly do believe that ID is science, that they have sound evidence in their corner, and for them, it's one hell of a controversy. That being said, these are not the people we see as mouthpieces for the ID "movement", thats just politics, and again, why are we invoking honesty with relation to politics?

I can't say this any more simply, I don't give a shit what peoples motivations are, I don't care if they're being honest, I only want to see the evidence. That, to me, is a view accomodating enough to allow whoever wishes for this to be science to make it so, and removes the opportunity to engage in diversionary shit when ID discussions crop up. So, arguments about honesty, irrelevant. Integrity, irrelevant, massive conspiracies against christ, irrelevant. Varying levels of ignorance or how mislead someone is, irrelevant. Philosophical arguments and false dilemmas, irrelevant. Legal manouvering or conversational wordplay, irrelevant.

Evidence, evidence, evidence.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#75
RE: 'Intelligent' design?
(March 12, 2012 at 8:38 am)Rhythm Wrote: . If they can find design in nature, that would be nobel prize worthy shit, and our knowledge of the world around us would be increased.
There is plenty of "design" in Nature but it isn't Nobel worthy. Read Philip Ball's book The Self Made Tapestry: Pattern Forming In Nature. Isn't real science fascinating?
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#76
RE: 'Intelligent' design?
Patterns are not designs. For something to be designed there is an element of top down management or direction, a designer. There is no such thing in nature. It makes for a good turn of phrase, but this is exactly what your favorite ID'ers seize upon in this sort of discussion, it gives them an oppurtunity to argue about anything other than....

Evidence, evidence, evidence.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#77
RE: 'Intelligent' design?
(March 12, 2012 at 10:14 am)Rhythm Wrote: Quite the narrow view of "honest" i think you just ruled out honesty as a non-existent quality of mankind Phil.
Didn't rule it out. People are honest about things all the time. There isn't a man (or women - put down the pitchforks) alive that is totally honest all the time. But we are not talking about a man (or woman), we are talking about an organization.

Quote:There are those who truly do believe that ID is science, that they have sound evidence in their corner, and for them, it's one hell of a controversy.
Scientific evidence for ID? Show it. I would have never thought you would side with ID as a science.
Quote:Evidence, evidence, evidence.
Again where is the evidence that ID is a science and how are you defining science?

(March 12, 2012 at 10:24 am)Rhythm Wrote: Patterns are not designs. For something to be designed there is an element of top down management or direction, a designer. There is no such thing in nature. It makes for a good turn of phrase, but this is exactly what your favorite ID'ers seize upon in this sort of discussion, it gives them an oppurtunity to argue about anything other than....

Evidence, evidence, evidence.

Read the book or at least look at what is in it. Just making that claim without even knowing what is in the book is about as stupid as a IDiot would be.
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#78
RE: 'Intelligent' design?
It's not a claim, I'm just reiterating what it means to be "designed". Cobbled together unthinkingly is not designed. The representatives of what remain is not design, and patterns, are not designs. ID isn't science, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be, if they had evidence. No other line of criticism really applies if we're talking about science. It's evidence or gtfo, is it not? So why ask for anything else, why even offer them the explanations that do come from evidence? Again, read these discussions, it starts out as "ID is science", but then you hear nothing but arguments and complaints and no science whatsoever. If they won't focus on their own, I want to help them focus.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#79
RE: 'Intelligent' design?
(March 12, 2012 at 10:31 am)Rhythm Wrote: It's not a claim, I'm just reiterating what it means to be "designed". Cobbled together unthinkingly is not designed. The representatives of what remain is not design, and patterns, are not designs. ID isn't science, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be, if they had evidence. No other line of criticism really applies if we're talking about science. It's evidence or gtfo, is it not? So why ask for anything else, why even offer them the explanations that do come from evidence? Again, read these discussions, it starts out as "ID is science", but then you hear nothing but arguments and complaints and no science whatsoever. If they won't focus on their own, I want to help them focus.

IDiots claim they are science but they are not. If they are, show the fucking evidence. If you can't, stop making the fucking claim. And once more, stop handwaving the book away as if your a fucking IDiot yourself. I'm through with this stupid crap.
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#80
RE: 'Intelligent' design?
Sigh, I'm not handwaving anything, calling a pattern we see in nature a design is a narrative device (and why would this surprise you, in a book title), it is not, strictly speaking, accurate. We design things, and so we interpret/communicate things that appear designed, to us, as designs, when other terms are a better fit. Is evapotranspiration a design? No, it is not, it is the effect of a large number of simple mechanical processes that follow from a simple set of starting conditions that altogether add up to what we interpret as a complex relationship. There is no design there, but there is a hell of alot of pattern and process. I'm just not willing to give ID an inch, so I refuse to even blather on poetically about "designs" in nature.

(how is my appraisal of this different from Ball's by the way, who states the same case as I am stating here? Not designed, but still complex, still useful, and entirely natural)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply



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