Some stuff in Islam that i don't get

[sharpguy88]

Two issues i want to debate:

1- Stereotyping in Islam is a very clear one, especially towards Jews:

You will surely find the most intense of the people in animosity toward the believers [to be] the Jews and those who associate others with Allah ; and you will find the nearest of them in affection to the believers those who say, "We are Christians." That is because among them are priests and monks and because they are not arrogant. (The Qur'an 5:82)

Not to mention the massacre of 600-900 Banu Quraiza Jews after they surrendered themselves to the prophet Mohammed following the battle of the trench. On those days you can compare these figures to Saddam's massacre of Kurds at Halabcha.

2- The second point is towards the prejudice towards bastards/illegitimate children:
They cannot lead the Friday prayers just because their parents did something "sinful". Not only that but shiite bastards are forbidden from becoming a Marja.

Can someone change my mind about these clear evil conception about Islam?

And i want this to be a serious debate no mocking or stuff like "Evil Allah is Evil"

[Forsaken]

Get an avatar and introduce yourself in the introduction section if you really want people to take you or your discussions seriously. Till then, Allah sucks ass and Mohammed is a pig.

[padraic]

Quote:1- Stereotyping in Islam is a very clear one, especially towards Jews:

Well not to me, I find Islam's attitude to the Jews inconsistent and confusing. I refer to "the people of The Book" . The treatment of Jews by Muslims has varied enormously throughout history. From a far greater tolerance in any Christian society to open hatred and persecution.

Today's mutual hatred and violence between some Jews and Muslims bemuses and saddens me: They have far more in common than not: Each group worships the same god,each traces its origin to the prophet Abraham. Originally both were members of the same language group; both were Semites.I have never been convinced that the current hostilities [at least] have anything to with religion. They are about power and territory,with each side claiming non existent rights and moral high ground.

Quote:People of the Book (Arabic: أهل الكتاب‎ ‎ ′Ahl al-Kitāb) is a term used to designate non-Muslim adherents to faiths which have a revealed scripture[1] called, in Arabic, Ahl-Al-Kitab (Arabic: الكتاب ‎ "the people of the Book" or "people of the Scripture"). The three types of adherents to faiths that the Qur'an mentions as people of the book are the Jews, Sabians and Christians

Quote:In the Qur'an

There are many statements in the Qur'an that promote tolerance towards People of The Book. For example:
And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him do we submit. [Quran 29:46]
In other places the Qur'an says:
Not all of them are alike; a party of the people of the Scripture stand for the right, they recite the Verses of God during the hours of the night, prostrating themselves in prayer. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin Al-Ma'rûf and forbid Al-Munkar ; and they hasten in (all) good works; and they are among the righteous. And whatever good they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knows well those who are Al-Muttaqûn .(3:113-115)
And there are, certainly, among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), those who believe in God and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before God. They do not sell the Verses of God for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, God is Swift in account. '(3:199)'
Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve . [Quran 2:62]
Say (O Muhammad ): "O people of the Scripture : Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but God, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides God. [Quran 3:64]
Throughout Islamic history, Muslims have used these ayah (verses) to justify a variety of positions towards non-Muslims. In some places and times, Muslims showed a great deal of tolerance towards non-Muslims; in other places and times non-Muslims were treated as enemies and persecuted.
One verse in the Qur'an encourages neutral position toward all non-Muslims. This verse says, "Those who follow the Jewish (scriptures) and the Sabians, Christians, Magians and Polytheists — God will judge them On the Day of Judgement:" (22:17).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book

I think it may be you who is doing the stereotyping. I don't know you,so could not care less about your prejudices. Consequently, I have no interest in changing your mind about anything..

[sharpguy88]

(12th March 2012 11:44)padraic Wrote:  Well not to me, I find Islam's attitude to the Jews inconsistent and confusing. I refer to "the people of The Book" . The treatment of Jews by Muslims has varied enormously throughout history. From a far greater tolerance in any Christian society to open hatred and persecution.

Today's mutual hatred and violence between some Jews and Muslims bemuses and saddens me: They have far more in common than not: Each group worships the same god,each traces its origin to the prophet Abraham. Originally both were members of the same language group; both were Semites.I have never been convinced that the current hostilities [at least] have anything to with religion. They are about power and territory,with each side claiming non existent rights and moral high ground.

[quote]People of the Book (Arabic: أهل الكتاب‎ ‎ ′Ahl al-Kitāb) is a term used to designate non-Muslim adherents to faiths which have a revealed scripture[1] called, in Arabic, Ahl-Al-Kitab (Arabic: الكتاب ‎ "the people of the Book" or "people of the Scripture"). The three types of adherents to faiths that the Qur'an mentions as people of the book are the Jews, Sabians and Christians

Although they have to pay the Jizyah, a Tax imposed on the "People of the book", and they can't preach in public... I agree treatment of Jews within the muslim society was a lot better than in Europe when they were in their middle ages... And yes i know that they are closely related in all ways... actually Historians consider them ancient Babylonians that broke out of their society.

And for the surahs you selected all of them were said or "revealed" before the Jews in al-Madina denied Prophet Mohammed's prophecy... Mohammed tried to convince the Jews at Al-Median to convert to Islam, hell he even faced the Temple of Solomon when praying just to get their sympathy and legitimize his prophecy... although they denied him Mohammed was a patient man he waited for a year and a half before he decided to turn against them... first by changing the direction of prayer from Jerusalem to the Kaaba in Mecca.

After that came the Jewish extermination campaign ...It began with the expulsion of Banu-Qaynuqa, then the massacre of Ban-Quraiza, then finally the expulsion of Banu-Nadir(though the prophet intended to massacre them in the same way as Banu-Quraiza...fortunately Abdullah bin-Ubaiy convinced him otherwise) .

Surah 22(Alhajj) is the only surah that is revealed after the hostilities though it doesn't give anyone neutral position, polytheists were not allowed to exist in an Islamic society(they either convert to Islam or die) ... It just says that everyone will be judged by God.

In the prophet's last years he actually accused the Jews of saying that Ezra is the son of God:

The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded? (Quraan 9:30)

...needles to say, until this day there is no evidence that any Jew in any point of time said anything like that.

Now i'm facing you with facts ... i live in an Islamic society... My grandfather used to describe how the alley boys used to beat up a Jewish boy just because he is Jewish(that was before Palestinian-Israeli conflict) ... i used to live as a shiite in a predominantly sunni society and i know how discrimination and stereotyping works here, not just social wise, but also politically.

Now i think that these facts disapprove your idea of Muslims singing "Kumbaa Yaa" with the Jews.

I lived the Islamic way of life, if you are just going to look at it from the outside and rant about it, rant all you want... because i'll always be one step ahead of you.

[Minimalist]

Quote:You will surely find the most intense of the people in animosity toward the believers [to be] the Jews

A lot of xtians feel the same way about Jews...


And you aren't going to see many people here defending or explaining Islam.

[sharpguy88]

You're probably right at least i'm safe here

[padraic]

Quote:I lived the Islamic way of life,

No you lived 'AN' islamic life,there is no such thing as "THE " Islamic life.

Quote:Now i'm facing you with facts

Facts? All I see are some bigoted opinions based on sweeping generalistions. Stereotyping any large group of people it's certainly easy,any child can do it. In an adult it indicates pig ignorance,closed mindedness and stupidity; it reveals a hateful bigot and a fool.

I really can't be bothered with you.


PS I have actually lived in a Muslin country.Mt experience is very different from yours.

[sharpguy88]

(13th March 2012 08:14)padraic Wrote:  

Quote:I lived the Islamic way of life,

Facts? All I see are some bigoted opinions based on sweeping generalistions. Stereotyping any large group of people it's certainly easy,any child can do it. In an adult it indicates pig ignorance,closed mindedness and stupidity; it reveals a hateful bigot and a fool.

I guess i should be the better man and not respond to your insults... for the sake of the debate.
In all written histories ranging from Ibn-Ishaq, to Ibn-Hisham, to Muruj Al-Dhahab... it is a fact that Muhammed ordered the expulsion of two Jewish tribes and and massacred one.(as previously written).

And the surahs i got were from the Qur'an and not my head... they, very clearly, have a stereotyping tone.

[fr0d0]

Muslims in the west insist that those verses that you state are fact aren't literal. As does our resident New Yorker Rayaan. It's difficult to get a solid opinion out of Rayaan though, probably for good reason.

[KichigaiNeko]

{Generalisation}

You won't get ANY sense out of ANY religious book... mainly because they were written by males with inferiority complexes and a very limited knowledge base. Plus the fact that it was prudent that people stayed ignorant and uneducated.

This is the 21st Century and these "books" are woefully out of date.