ALL HAIL CAPITALISM

[The Grand Nudger]

Sigh, Cin, everyone doesn't feel this way. You do, and that's okay, it takes a whole village. For every asshat that would stay the axe there's bound to be somebody who would say "meh, fuck it, we don't need that one". Keeps us balanced..lol.

[Cinjin]

Sigh, Cin, everyone doesn't feel this way. You do, and that's okay, it takes a whole village. For every asshat that would stay the axe there's bound to be somebody who would say "meh, fuck it, we don't need that one". Keeps us balanced..lol.

Sigh ... making thinly veiled insults about my intelligence Rhythm doesn't make my opinion any less valid than others.
I never said anything about everyone feeling the same way. I'm reasonably sure that this age-old debate has been divided down the middle since mankind invented executions. This is one of the few debates that has always been a hot-button for me and since many of you regularly express your ridiculous opinions openly on these forums, I feel I should have the same privilege.

If you feel it is your moral duty to protect thousands of convicted murderers, rapists, and child molesters in an effort to safeguard a tiny handful of other convicted criminals who may or may not be guilty than that is your prerogative.
But know that it is hypocritical on two painfully obvious levels.
1. You (using "you" in a general sense) have a problem with executing a man who MIGHT be innocent, but yet you have no problem with ruining his life by letting him agonize in prison for an entire lifetime. Where's your bleeding heart then? You know where it is? It's safely in your home because you don't want to admit what the rest of us already know. That man might be guilty as shit and you simply cannot risk letting him out to endanger your family.

2. Time after time when put to task, you will admit that if it was your mother or child who was violently murdered you'd be more than willing to take that man's life from him because it is justified and the right choice to safeguard the rest of the civilized world.


Do I want innocent men to die? Of course not, I don't even want all criminals to die, but the bleeding heart will change his tune real fuckin quick when it's his loved one who has to forfeit his or her life because a violent predator was released after doing his time. Meanwhile, your kindness to these few "innocent" men allows them to suffer in prison for decades if not a lifetime.

I see no redeeming notion to your side of the argument. It's political correctness meets self-righteous hypocrisy ... in my ever-so-humble opinion.

[Tempus]

Crimes are graded and punished accordingly. Typically we recognise rape as being less significant than murder, theft as less significant than rape, and selling drugs as less significant than theft. There are, of course, circumstances where this is not the case but it is generally so. The problem with punishing a set of crimes (rape, paedophilia and murder in this case) equally - that is, with the death penalty - is that it provides an incentive for people who are rapists but don't normally murder people to also kill their victims. This is because the penalty for murder and rape is now the same. All rapists might as well kill their victims and witnesses now because if they're caught they'll be punished as if they had anyway.

The reason life imprisonment is a good compromise is because you don't kill any innocent people, giving them / their lawyer / their family a chance to mount a "hey, I'm actually innocent" case, while protecting the public from the guilty ones. Is this flawless? No, it's not. Guilty people get paroled and innocent people serve out life sentences. But the solution isn't to refuse to recognise the gradient of crimes and their proportional punishment, for the reason I outlined in the preceding paragraph.

I agree with your sentiment, Cinjin; if someone exists who's only going to cause more suffering why should why keep them around? Yet I think we're looking at the problem the wrong way. We're saying "what do we do with these murderers and rapists?" and this is important - they're an immediate threat to society at large which needs to be dealt with, please don't mistake me for saying otherwise. But, what we also need to be asking is "why are there murderers and rapists?" What predisposes people to commit these actions and how can we prevent it? Killing offenders isn't going to prevent more offenders replacing them. I think you're focusing too much on bandaging the wounds rather than preventing the injuries. My personal opinion is that violent crime is heavily tied into educational and economic factors. Rather than spend time trying to instate the death penalty for rapists I'd rather look into the backgrounds / statistics of rapists and see what I can do to reduce the chances of a society producing one. I don't think that's the be all and end all solution, but I do think understanding the problem is better than condemning people.

[NoMoreFaith]

But know that it is hypocritical on two painfully obvious levels.
1. You (using "you" in a general sense) have a problem with executing a man who MIGHT be innocent, but yet you have no problem with ruining his life by letting him agonize in prison for an entire lifetime. Where's your bleeding heart then? You know where it is? It's safely in your home because you don't want to admit what the rest of us already know. That man might be guilty as shit and you simply cannot risk letting him out to endanger your family.

If we take the appeal to emotion out of this argument, it is clearly evident by the opinions stated about miscarriage of justice is that the main concern is based upon the idea of miscarriage of justice. The basis of the argument is upon the pain and suffering to the occasional innocent. However, it is curious however, that in states where capital punishment is observed, very few would chooses death over life imprisonment if life imprisonment was in any way, shape, or form, equivalent suffering to execution.
You are also ignoring the concept of error rectification. You can free and compensate an innocent man, yet you cannot unexecute him.

Clearly the idea that the occasional innocent man in jail is therefore preferable in a faulty system, than execution. Equating that we are ignorant of those innocent in jail is a straw man construction which seems to equate that the natural progression of those opposed to the death penalty is that we shouldn't punish anyone in case they are innocent.

This is clearly a heated issue for you on this controversial issue but this first point is a non-argument, and not a hypocritical position at all.

2. Time after time when put to task, you will admit that if it was your mother or child who was violently murdered you'd be more than willing to take that man's life from him because it is justified and the right choice to safeguard the rest of the civilized world.

I would argue that if your mother or child was violently murdered, the consideration of justification and protection of society is not what you are thinking about!

The urge for retribution is strong in our psyche, however, it remains an irrational response to the issue, an appeal to the savage that resides in us all, not a rational one as you argue.

Do I want innocent men to die? Of course not, I don't even want all criminals to die, but the bleeding heart will change his tune real fuckin quick when it's his loved one who has to forfeit his or her life because a violent predator was released after doing his time.

As discussed above, this doesn't make it the rational response. Are you really proposing that when you are wronged, your instinctual reaction is the obvious and natural moral good? I doubt that you are.. in which case.. what is your argument?

Meanwhile, your kindness to these few "innocent" men allows them to suffer in prison for decades if not a lifetime.

I've made my case of refutation to this in your first point. Repeating it doesn't make it correct. Our kindness, amongst the points raised earlier, does however, allows the potential by kindness of rectifying errors in justice. You cannot unexecute someone.

I see no redeeming notion to your side of the argument. It's political correctness meets self-righteous hypocrisy ... in my ever-so-humble opinion.

Likewise, your arguments lack depth on the issue, and consist of constant appeals to emotion, and alleged hypocrisy which is not evident.

If we're discussing the destruction of a human life, the only way to approach it is from a rational point of view, rather than the emotive ones you portray here.

The emotional basis of revenge (and that is all the meek word of retribution means) is not sufficient to support the construction of state administered execution.
To answer your charge of self-righteous I plead guilty, your honor, in that I believe our laws and criminal justice system should demonstrate a respect for life and based upon the highest moral principles. In that the argument for "righteousness" is true. We may debate the fact the current system in whichever country fails to achieve that standard, in fact I think we'd agree its not even open to debate. However it remains "self-righteous" because most forms of moral philosophy would lead you to this proposition instead of Revenge™.

Even if we ignore the suffering imposed upon victims and even the perpetrators own family in the lead up to an execution, any system designed to murder would be subject to a process that would inevitably lead not to the implementation of "eye for an eye" justice, against the worst perpetrators, but rather implementation of the death penalty against those who have the most limited resources available to defend themselves.

Factually put, the execution of the innocent by the state is the most grievous "sin" that it can perpetrate. The argument of "acceptable losses" does not apply to revenge killings, and barely even applicable to the concept of deterrance (even if you managed to prove that).

So, in response, I myself, find no redeeming quality to your argument.

[Cinjin]

fair enough.

[reverendjeremiah]

Just more of the obvious absurdity of the human condition:

Its wrong to hold people against their will. So we will hold people against their will for doing it.

It's wrong to kill people. So we will kill people for killing people.

Its wrong to rape people, so I hope when we hold you against your will that you get raped everyday.


Yup, thats the typical human attitude. It isnt about justice. Its about revenge.

[The Grand Nudger]

Nothing to do with pc Cin, I'm as bloodthirsty as the next guy, I just don't think that's the side of myself or "us" that should be codified into our system of law. It's highly likely that I would cry for blood if one of my daughters became a victim, but I'd be disappointed if we (I use the general "we") thought that my bloodlust in that moment was a product of anything other than my own grief. Consider his life sentence a long term stay in protective custody. Keeps both sides from doing further harm.

---

O wait, unless of course it's THEIR child or sibling or parent who gets raped and murdered, than suddenly they're not so rigid on capital punishment.

The post my comment was directed towards. Terrible as it may be, what's the point in having an ideal if you drop it when things become insufferable? Let me have this one little thing, I'd like to think that we could do better, perhaps we cannot. It is a pleasant thought though. Whatever terrible outburst I would have faced with the loss of my daughter should not be held against me as though it formed the entirety of how I really felt, deep down, even on this single issue.

(If I misread this post and you did not mean to implicate everyone..... my bad amigo.)

[JohnDG]

We are a facist nation, take it from person of color who lived in poverty. The police are just as bad as anyone who holds power over other people you only now see what they really are because race makes no difference anymore.. Ive actually been arrestedand almost went to prison for murder when I was 16. Funny thing is I called the police to report a dead body I found "white guy" at an apartment complex I was living at. Don't laugh but I was one of the Mexican maitenence workers. One of the neighbors came out and looked at the apartment and the dead body we were waiting in. I happen to be a legal citizen, so I just blew it off when the other maintenece workers told me to run. Well the police came and because there were so many allot of the other neighbors came out. What shocked me is the white guy that was there waiting also said that he found the body and that I just came upon an open apartment noticed a dead guy and started stealing things.. Even more of shit I could not believe was the other neighbors started to back him up. I WAS ON THE FUCKING PHONE WITH THE 911 EMERGENCY OPERATOR. THE POLICE IMMEDIATELY FORCED ME TO THE GROUND, HANDCUFFED ME AND TOOK ME TO JAIL. They told me that I was to be charged with murder and theft if they found any evidence that I was there earlier. Later they released me because they found he died from natural causes and the apartments landlord said I worked for him.

I will never forget anything white people have subjected me to and believe me there is a long long list. When I see your faces I remember everything your people did to me, my people, my culture and others. We will never forget, no matter how hard you try to make us.

If you do not beleive this to be an example of facism, let me remind you that opression is a tool facist use.
FYI... there are still people alive from the civil rights era, 50 years isn't very long. Those people hold you accountable for every action your entire race has ever made. Don't forget they still live, don't forget they remember the hate, don't forget they know what your capable of.

Don't forget opression is a tool of facism.


You don't have to listen to the song, but please read the lyrics and maybe you might understand a little more about yourselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOINSUWOq...re=related

[reverendjeremiah]

I hear ya John. I have nothing against your post at all and agree 100%

Also remember that the same is true on the other side...its funny how people are. One group of Mexicans beats up a white kid and he will hold it against ALL mexicans as long as he lives, and will most definitely teach his hatred to everyone he gets the chance. Same as if a bunch of white kids beat up a mexican.

Once shit gets this bad it gets all out of hand.

[JohnDG]

Good thing I believe everyone is the same regardless of color, religion or where your born. Because if I didn't you would have lots of problems of violence with me. Because I cannot and will not forget.