Theory of Everything (unifying faith and reason)

[Chuck]

(1st April 2012 08:03)Phil Wrote:  

(1st April 2012 08:01)popeyespappy Wrote:  

(1st April 2012 07:26)Phil Wrote:  But in the USA we are #1 and don't you forget young man...

Well to be fair we're only 4th or 5th in executions....

That's because Texas has been slacking lately.

But in atonement for the low output, texas put a young Blackman on death row whose IQ was 56, who was abused all his life, whose was 15 when he allegedly committed his crime, the evidence for which was revealed to be tainted; and on whose behalf not only the pope, but no less a bleeding heart than the president of iran, Pleaded.

But Texas and its then governor gwb showed their Christian charity and killed him real good any way.

[popeyespappy]

(1st April 2012 15:24)Chuck Wrote:  

(1st April 2012 08:03)Phil Wrote:  

(1st April 2012 08:01)popeyespappy Wrote:  

(1st April 2012 07:26)Phil Wrote:  But in the USA we are #1 and don't you forget young man...

Well to be fair we're only 4th or 5th in executions....

That's because Texas has been slacking lately.

But in atonement for the low output, texas put a young Blackman on death row whose IQ was 56, who was abused all his life, whose was 15 when he allegedly committed his crime, the evidence for which was revealed to be tainted; and on whose behalf not only the pope, but no less a bleeding heart than the president of iran, Pleaded.

But Texas and its then governor gwb showed their Christian charity and killed him real good any way.

[wisdom searcher]

(1st April 2012 13:43)tobie Wrote:  Why is the only reasonable object of faith the christian god? It's one of the worst, and as characters go, it's not even consistent. People still believe in god because of millennia of religious indoctrination, so people get brainwashed into believing.

Anybody can believe what they want to, but I personally think it is reasonable because of the way the world IS. If the world was nice I would believe in a nice God. The world sucks and we all want something better. Faith should help explain reality, and the Bible does explain why life is often so terrible, and gives a offer of something better.

I also find it hard to believe that most of the world is brainwashed and only those who put rationalism above theism are not.

[Tobie]

(1st April 2012 19:53)wisdom searcher Wrote:  

(1st April 2012 13:43)tobie Wrote:  Why is the only reasonable object of faith the christian god? It's one of the worst, and as characters go, it's not even consistent. People still believe in god because of millennia of religious indoctrination, so people get brainwashed into believing.

Anybody can believe what they want to, but I personally think it is reasonable because of the way the world IS. If the world was nice I would believe in a nice God. The world sucks and we all want something better. Faith should help explain reality, and the Bible does explain why life is often so terrible, and gives a offer of something better.

I also find it hard to believe that most of the world is brainwashed and only those who put rationalism above theism are not.

The bible doesn't in any way or form explain why the world is often a terrible place. It's a book of bullshit which, if true, would mean the world would be full of incestuous pricks living to 150 years old. Seeming as it isn't, the bible is a lie.

[Norfolk And Chance]

(1st April 2012 19:53)wisdom searcher Wrote:  I also find it hard to believe that most of the world is brainwashed

This is because you are brainwashed.

[oxymoron]

(1st April 2012 19:53)wisdom searcher Wrote:  Anybody can believe what they want to, but I personally think it is reasonable because of the way the world IS. If the world was nice I would believe in a nice God.

But... this was the way we were made. By God. Yahweh is a butcher, a tyrant who appeals not to the better things in people, but genocide when things don't work out. He slaughters Egyptian babies for things that were beyond the influence of even their parents. He slaughters EVERYONE because they aren't to his taste even though he gave them their nature. It wasn't US that made god nasty, god was a nasty, racist, butchering tyrant to start with. Why would you expect us to turn out any better?

Of course, I believe none of that - but for those that bow down to this bastard, I question your motives. I also question this:

(1st April 2012 19:53)wisdom searcher Wrote:  The world sucks and we all want something better.

Certain aspects of the world suck, for sure. Not all of it. And we get a million chances every day to make our lives a bit better. We already live far longer, far more secure, far more healthy lives than even our recent ancestors. The one thing that has made our lives better is science and engineering. 1800 years of prayers and hocus-pocus did sod all to life expectancy. Suddenly, with the invention of safe surgery, antibiotics, sanitation and disinfectants, people start living longer across all social stratas. Polio had its blighting ass kicked not by faith, but by medicine. Want something genuinely better? Then stop pretending that talking to an invisible friend will sort everything out and go actually change something that matters.

(1st April 2012 19:53)wisdom searcher Wrote:  Faith should help explain reality,

Since when should "belief in things not seen" (the OT's definition of faith, not mine) "explain reality"? Sounds more like pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking. If it DID explain reality, it would be coincidence, nothing else.

(1st April 2012 19:53)wisdom searcher Wrote:  and the Bible does explain why life is often so terrible,

Do you have issues with serious depression? Seriously: life can suck sometimes but I don't recognise the picture you are painting. And most of the suckiness could be averted by some omnimax superbeing - but isn't.n If god exists and the world sucks, then it's his doing.

(1st April 2012 19:53)wisdom searcher Wrote:  and gives a offer of something better.

No it doesn't. All of eternity spent with a brutal, vain, sulking dictator? Is that the best hope that you have? I'd take my chances downstairs.

(1st April 2012 19:53)wisdom searcher Wrote:  I also find it hard to believe that most of the world is brainwashed and only those who put rationalism above theism are not.

Lies spread real easy, especially when - as you so rightly allude - people want to believe they are true.

[wisdom searcher]

(1st April 2012 20:33)oxymoron Wrote:  Certain aspects of the world suck, for sure. Not all of it. And we get a million chances every day to make our lives a bit better. We already live far longer, far more secure, far more healthy lives than even our recent ancestors. The one thing that has made our lives better is science and engineering. 1800 years of prayers and hocus-pocus did sod all to life expectancy. Suddenly, with the invention of safe surgery, antibiotics, sanitation and disinfectants, people start living longer across all social stratas. Polio had its blighting ass kicked not by faith, but by medicine.

Since when should "belief in things not seen" (the OT's definition of faith, not mine) "explain reality"?

Vaccines destroyed polio and lots of other diseases including the much worse smallpox. Vaccines (and pasteurization) were "invented" by Louis Pasteur, a Christian. Many advances in Science, Technology, and medicine were the result of research by Christians. We do more than just pray. Oh, and praying started at least 6,000 years ago.

Ever been to Haiti? We type happily about things like this while people butcher one another and starve to death. I've been there. I've seen it. It's not depression. It's reality. Try explaining yourself to an eight year old boy who watched his father macheted to death. I believe his name is Andrea (they speak French in Haiti). I'll never forget the look in his eyes.

Belief in things not seen would be belief in an unseen reality, and it is the NT not the OT (Hebrews 11:1).

God is also described as compassionate and merciful, slow to anger, taking care of orphans. God is angry because we ruined the world we were supposed to take care of. Those people he slaughtered thought it was a good idea to sacrifice their children to the gods, and that really makes God angry. A world "downstairs" apart from his anger over sin would be with the worst of man's inhumanity and the lack of God's mercy.

[mediamogul]

Here is the unifying theory:

Reason destroys faith.

Reason remains as the sole determination of fact and truth.

Superstition and ignorance dissappear from the world.

There we go. Unified.

[oxymoron]

(1st April 2012 21:16)wisdom searcher Wrote:  Vaccines destroyed polio and lots of other diseases including the much worse smallpox. Vaccines (and pasteurization) were "invented" by Louis Pasteur, a Christian. Many advances in Science, Technology, and medicine were the result of research by Christians. We do more than just pray. Oh, and praying started at least 6,000 years ago.

The benefits of what they did were for all of humanity, not just Christians. Unlike Christianity.

(1st April 2012 21:16)wisdom searcher Wrote:  Oh, and praying started at least 6,000 years ago.

LOL, I think it's existed in some form for a lot longer than that. Still, I was referring to people praying to Jesus for respite from plague, cholera, malaria or one of god's other lovely inventions that we call "diseases" (or perhaps even being burned by Christians for being ugly or pagan or black or simply not Christian) - but the prayers failing spectacularly until people started removing their personal beliefs from what they studied as a matter of process.

(1st April 2012 21:16)wisdom searcher Wrote:  Ever been to Haiti? We type happily about things like this while people butcher one another and starve to death. I've been there. I've seen it. It's not depression. It's reality. Try explaining yourself to an eight year old boy who watched his father macheted to death. I believe his name is Andrea (they speak French in Haiti). I'll never forget the look in his eyes.

Therefore god exists? Not only a non sequitur, but a bit of a contradiction given the religiosity of the island. No, I haven't been there though, and I am glad of it.

(1st April 2012 21:16)wisdom searcher Wrote:  God is also described as compassionate and merciful, slow to anger, taking care of orphans.

Just like he did in Haiti? Or Rwanda? Or...

(1st April 2012 21:16)wisdom searcher Wrote:  God is angry because we ruined the world we were supposed to take care of.

Yes, we "ruined" it by increasing people's life expectancy, tackling diseases, cleaning drinking water, building sewerage, educating our children, tolerating minorities... In fact the ones doing the ruining were most frequently the religious (Haiti, Rwanda, FYR...). No doubt you, like all believers, consider your personal flavour of religion to be the "one true" one (because all those lovely Christians who brought about the Inquisitions and the Crusades "weren't real Christians"). But the simple fact of history is that you aren't. A real Christian would be a Jew, because that's how Jesus died (assuming that he lived). And you simply hold on to some modern rationalisation of a Roman religion that brutalised the world for centuries. Point is though, irrespective of the merits of any particular variant, faith seems to have inspired many more wrong believers than right ones. A good thing to have? Good grief no.

(1st April 2012 21:16)wisdom searcher Wrote:  Those people he slaughtered thought it was a good idea to sacrifice their children to the gods, and that really makes God angry.

Despite the fact that God requested Abraham to sacrifice Isaac? Yes, very credible that he would then get really angry about it - what with being "slow to anger" and "merciful" and stuff. But no - Yahweh was just an invention of a Bedouin tribe and their delusions about being "chosen", and everyone else was just sword fodder.